Invisibility /stealth / hide with a rigid DM what can i do instead?

Wrathamon · Apr 27, 2018

also by attack ... it's not attack action but rolling a d20 to make an attack.

I think people "turning" invisible because they activate "stealth" to be odd. No stealth mode for me. it's not a super power.

But, you should be able to become hidden while invisible. That is a super power

Greenstone.Walker · Apr 27, 2018

I became a lot happier with the 5E stealth rules when I split them into two different concepts - unseen and hidden.

If you are unseen then I know you are there and I know vaguely where you are and I can attack you (but with disadvantage).

If you are hidden then I don't know where you are, except in the vaguest of ways (for example, somewhere in this room). I may not even know you are there at all. I can't attack you directly except by guessing at a location, and even then I am attacking with disadvantage.

You can be unseen but not hidden. For example, an invisible creature leaving tracks or a creature making noise on the other side of an obstruction.

Generally, being unseen is a requirement for attempting to hide in the first place and for remaining hidden.

It is rare, but you can be hidden but not unseen. For example, someone hiding in plain sight in a crowd or someone using a disguise. I guess a better term for this would be "unnoticed".

Blue · Apr 27, 2018

Gardens & Goblins said:
FLOW CHART!

Did someone say ... FLOW CHART?!

Coroc · Apr 27, 2018

To clarify things a bit, it is not a rogue although the char doubles up as the Party rogue. Being Wood elf criminal Background makes this single classed ramger actually a multiclassed ranger rogue with proficiency in perception stealth and even lockpicks.

I will describe the situations a bit better: We are playing Oota (no Spoilers pls)

One of the situations was a mass combat where the Party was had some cover by a room inside a stalagmit. The DM would not allow that i hide/stealth before taking a look out. He said the mobs would instantly notice me because they look at the entrance. So, since stealth is not equal to invisibility i can live with that ruling.

But the in Initial postings Situation my char was not moving, hiding and invisible but several derro were swarming the place so he ruled one of them stumbled over me.
Since when in such a Situation, i should be able to evade the contact, no? The derro were actively searching for the group or an attacker (and lateron i learned that they had alarms there notifying them of invisible People (but not dispelling the invisibility)) i should mention that for clarity.

Nevvur · Apr 27, 2018

Coroc said:
But the in Initial postings Situation my char was not moving, hiding and invisible but several derro were swarming the place so he ruled one of them stumbled over me.
Since when in such a Situation, i should be able to evade the contact, no? The derro were actively searching for the group or an attacker (and lateron i learned that they had alarms there notifying them of invisible People (but not dispelling the invisibility)) i should mention that for clarity.

I looked up the encounter in question to see what's going on (I have the book, but never actually ran the campaign). Or at least to see how the authors intended it to play out. What I write in the block below should explain things a bit, but will constitute a big spoiler for anyone who hasn't been through this scenario:

[sblock] Your DM wasn't inventing gotchas, the area was warded against invisibility because of the duergar ability, but other magic and stealth options would've been fine. If an invisible creature enters the area, it sends off an alarm and derro swarm the area. The text calls for PCs making a Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by active Wisdom (Perception) checks by the derro. (OotA p.64 for anyone else curious about the scenario) [/sblock]

As a point of curiosity, how recent was your last stealth check before the derro showed up? They were actively searching, and the DM might've just rolled their active search without prompting you for another stealth check, then narrated their success as one of them stumbling onto your location. Especially since you just wrote you weren't moving. Personally, I would've telegraphed that one of the derro was about to collide and give you the chance to make another stealth check, but it sounds to me like he honored your decision - to stand still.

Coroc · Apr 27, 2018

[MENTION=6783882]Nevvur[/MENTION]
Wow most interesting, that the DM kept so close to the book, and somehow the Situation made it likely to use stealth or invisibility in that spot. Once the campaign is over i will read it up.

Thanks to all replies, you were very helpful.

CapnZapp · Apr 27, 2018

Shiroiken said:
I've played in a game with a DM that hated rogues before, so I understand (I know you're not a rogue). Basically his version of "realism" said that unless the rules explicitly stated that you could hide or get sneak attack, you couldn't. While this was 3E, I strongly suspect that guy still runs it this way in 5E. You can't really get around it, because the DM has already decided.

Other than talking to him about it, the best solution I can think of is to ask "is there anywhere I can hide?" before actually attempting it. This will at least keep you from wasting your turn, even if you can't actually use your skill.

I would have thought the best solution to be working with, not against, your DM.

Simply play a rogue with another DM, and play something non-stealthy with that DM. Like a kick-in-the-door Barbarian, perhaps?

dco · Apr 27, 2018

Coroc said:
I found out over the course of several game sessions that our DM is very strict if i try to hide or stay hidden with my character especially in combat scenarios.My Char: Wood elf ranger stealth prof. and mask of the wild.Lately i had a Scenario with my char being invisible (pot) and in stealth but he still ruled some mob stumble over me and allowed it to hit me although with disad.I could not use mask of the wild once yet, he strictly disallows going into hiding when there is the slightest chance any mob see me.I end up using hit and run tactics a lot (35' movement helps a lot) but tbh. had i known he is so uncomfortable with stealthy chars i might have in a char with more AC instead. What else can i do?

I don't know what mask of the wild does but in any case:
If you are invisible you are not intangible and the enemy can stumble on you with bad luck depending on where you are, I think if you were invisible you should still have a surprise round.
If the enemy doesn't know you are there they should act as if you weren't there.
If you are unseen but they know you are present but not your location they have to search you if they want to hit you. In the case of being invisible, miniatures and a grid are a great help in our games, the players move their character until they detect the square where the enemy is, the enemies do it semi-random, but if there are more visible players they don't waste time with the invisible one.
If you are unseen but they know where you are they move there and hit you. For example they see you hide behind a door, the enemy goes to the door and hits you.

Oofta · Apr 27, 2018

Coroc said:
To clarify things a bit, it is not a rogue although the char doubles up as the Party rogue. Being Wood elf criminal Background makes this single classed ramger actually a multiclassed ranger rogue with proficiency in perception stealth and even lockpicks.

I will describe the situations a bit better: We are playing Oota (no Spoilers pls)

One of the situations was a mass combat where the Party was had some cover by a room inside a stalagmit. The DM would not allow that i hide/stealth before taking a look out. He said the mobs would instantly notice me because they look at the entrance. So, since stealth is not equal to invisibility i can live with that ruling.

But the in Initial postings Situation my char was not moving, hiding and invisible but several derro were swarming the place so he ruled one of them stumbled over me.
Since when in such a Situation, i should be able to evade the contact, no? The derro were actively searching for the group or an attacker (and lateron i learned that they had alarms there notifying them of invisible People (but not dispelling the invisibility)) i should mention that for clarity.

Based on [MENTION=6783882]Nevvur[/MENTION]'s response I'd say a conversation with the DM (even if it's email/text) is still definitely called for. This may just be some unique situations and it sounds like it may not be as bad as you think.

Just keep in mind that a character with the criminal background can do most of what a rogue can do, but a rogue is still going to be better at being a rogue. In addition, while I prefer the looser feel of 5E it does mean there will be a lot of variation from table to table.

CapnZapp · Apr 27, 2018

Or you could just not choose a concept that stealths.

Nothing wrong with a campaign without Rogues - at least not if the players get fair warning.

Maybe play a Barbarian just this once?

Invisibility /stealth / hide with a rigid DM what can i do instead?

Wrathamon

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Greenstone.Walker

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Coroc

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Nevvur

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Coroc

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CapnZapp

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dco

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Oofta

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CapnZapp

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