I was right about Shield Master

Ristamar · Oct 17, 2018

Mistwell said:
Except the prior logic follows the established RAW/RAI for triggers that was established with Bonus Actions (as opposed to Reactions). As Jeremy Crawford points out in his response, "As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing..."

Yeah, I didn't quite understand that logic at the time, so I shrugged it off and assumed it was an exception based ruling. Why have two sets of general rules for triggers? Why would you allow most Bonus actions to trigger like an interrupting Reaction (which are the rare exceptions)? If they switch back again for some reason, well, that's their prerogative as the designers... I'm not going to rage about it.

I do think this is a cleaner interpretation aside from the fact that the wording of the Shield Master feat kinda sucks. Is anything else triggered off only the Attack Action? Even the rule for two-weapon fighting is more specific.

I certainly understand the general confusion and disappointment. They probably should have made the shove granted by the feat a Bonus action without a trigger from the start.

Mistwell · Oct 17, 2018

What would have worked best is if they eliminated the use of a bonus action for the shove entirely. Just have it say,

"Once per turn on your turn if you hit a creature that is no more than one size larger than you with a melee attack, you do damage as normal, and as part of that same successful attack you can make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you can either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."

That way you still have your bonus action, and there are no timing questions.

Ristamar · Oct 17, 2018

Mistwell said:
What would have worked best is if they eliminated the use of a bonus action for the shove entirely. Just have it say,

"Once per turn on your turn if you hit a creature that is no more than one size larger than you with a melee attack, you do damage as normal, and as part of that same successful attack you can make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you can either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."

That way you still have your bonus action, and there are no timing questions.

That would make it even more powerful than the original interpretation in most cases. Not sure how I feel about that, but it would fall in line with Mearls' desire to get rid of bonus actions.

Istbor · Oct 17, 2018

I think Oofta's online handle accurately describes how this thread makes me feel.

5ekyu · Oct 17, 2018

Yunru said:
Ha! Care to back your claim that the action has to be completed, not merely taken, for the Bonus action? Since not even the tweet says that.

That said, here:

Note that you make an attack with the action, which means before you even make an attack, you've taken the attack action.

"Ah, but you have to make the first attack immediately" you go to say?
Clearly not, since you can take the attack action, then move, then make the first attack.

The fact that movement specifically has it's own time allowing its use bdfore, between and after attacks in no way implies all other actions can do the same.

Mistwell · Oct 17, 2018

Ristamar said:
That would make it even more powerful than the original interpretation in most cases. Not sure how I feel about that, but it would fall in line with Mearls' desire to get rid of bonus actions.

The original interpretation allowed the melee attacker to attack at advantage with often multiple attacks. This version, while not using a bonus action, also doesn't cause advantage for the attacker as often. So I am not sure it's "more powerful" than the original interpretation. I am also unsure why it took a bonus action to begin with - you're not doing anything extra by knocking someone down with your attack. It's still your attack doing the knocking down.

Ristamar · Oct 17, 2018

Mistwell said:
The original interpretation allowed the melee attacker to attack at advantage with often multiple attacks. This version, while not using a bonus action, also doesn't cause advantage for the attacker as often. So I am not sure it's "more powerful" than the original interpretation. I am also unsure why it took a bonus action to begin with - you're not doing anything extra by knocking someone down with your attack. It's still your attack doing the knocking down.

EDIT: I guess it is highly dependent upon your potential bonus action options and how hard it is to hit or knock down your opponent.

Mistwell · Oct 17, 2018

Ristamar said:
My mistake, I thought you were using that wording specific to the Shield Master feat, not as a general rule for shoving.

It's been a long day.

I am using wording specific to the feat

pemerton · Oct 18, 2018

epithet said:
The shield bash requires the attack action, regardless of other considerations. If you don't have the Shield Master feat, the shove takes the place of an attack, so any way you parse it a character who makes a shove has taken the attack action.

Thanks, that's what [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] said also.

pemerton · Oct 18, 2018

FrogReaver said:
When you go to college you can have a car.

That's an odd example for you to put forward, because normally you'd expect that car when you start going to college, not when you graduate!

EDIT: And once again beaten to the post by [MENTION=6780961]Yunru[/MENTION].