D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them." Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better...

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 
Click to expand...

Parmandur

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I have no interest in being prescriptive, but am rather interested in understanding, in descriptive terms, what has happened and is happening, to better comprehend what may happen.

Setting aside the rather huge number of players who have only ever played 5E at this point, there are four logical extreme categories of players:

A.) Hated 4E, hate 5E

B.) Loved 4E, hate 5E

C.) Hated 4E, love 5E

D.) Loved 4E, love 5E

Obviously, there is going to be a great deal of nuance and shade here, but this is the basic square of opposition. C & D are the two most common reactions, with A probably being a distant third most common.

What I am interested in from these sorts of conversations, is understanding where people fall on this spectrum, and why.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Imaro

Imaro

Legend
Garthanos said:
At birth/infancy because yeh you hand that enchantment out to fighter types all the time and there are actually mechanics for it...

Oh and you think a dispel magic would remove an effect created by the river stix

sheesh
Click to expand...

So now the standard is replicate perfectly?? Sorry D&D is not the Achilles roleplaying game but the basic premise... being enchanted to do things beyond that of mere mortals is perfectly viable in 5e.
 

Parmandur

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Garthanos said:
At birth/infancy because yeh you hand that enchantment out to fighter types all the time and there are actually mechanics for it...

Oh and you think a dispel magic would remove an effect created by the river stix

sheesh
Click to expand...

There are options in the DMG for Charms, Boons, etc. that stand outside normal Class restrictions. If a DM and players want a gonzo style, the DMG does lay out how to do it, without need for scaling the math.
 

Imaro

Imaro

Legend
Manbearcat said:
And a likely clinically insane, teenage, illiterate, peasant girl swung the tide of The Hundred Years War by repeatedly charging fortified English positions (which should have been an absolute death sentence) bulwarked by the French zealouts WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVED SHE WAS SENT FROM GOD TO ENSURE CONTINUED FRENCH HEREDITARY RIGHT TO THE THRONE.

Humans are UNBELIEVABLY irrational. And the fact that lots and lots together can believe something or convince themselves of something isn’t interesting. It’s rote human conditioning (and has evolved to become advantageous when facing acute selection pressures).

So the fact that a lot of players who have played D&D for awhile and have internalized a paradigm, or casual players who want a low overhead entry point like vanilla Fighter design isn’t persuasive of any thing in discussions like this. Mearls et al may have to consider that data when discussion design impetus, but we (here on these boards) aren’t constrained by such things. We can discuss design implications on various components of actual play and be unmoored by the signal of (likely cognitive bias-driven) social data. So continuously bringing things up like that (eg “I’m in the majority and your interests are minority!”) are neither interesting nor persuasive to someone like me. They only serve to stifle conversation insofar as I get bored of dealing with that refrain...over...and over...and over...and over...and just check out of conversations (or engaging the board wholesale).
Click to expand...

Yeah but if they aren't taken into consideration you can end up with a game that isn't commercially viable... which if you actually want support and a player base to draw from should definitely be taken into consideration.

Also brushing the popularity of Fighters off as irrational as opposed to considering that there may be something in the design that numerous people find enjoyable and maybe just maybe your preferences could be outliers and would actually hinder or hurt the game is... also a form of stifling conversation and don't persuade those of us who have players that actually enjoy the design.
 

Garthanos

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Imaro said:
So now the standard is replicate perfectly?
Click to expand...

Yeh I am calling it so far from being perfect as to be insulting.

Note we arent discussing details like how to make it feel like the person has one "secret" vulnerable spot without making it ridiculously over powered. Even giving innate damage resistance would be hard pressed not to be. Takes extra damage from critical hits would not be a great off set but it would have the flavor.
 

Garthanos

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Imaro said:
Also brushing the popularity of Fighters off as irrational as opposed to considering that there may be something in the design that numerous people find enjoyable
Click to expand...

People find Martial visceral and identifiable and its the archetype not necessarily that implementation or design as much as the other associations they have with it.

The fighter was a very heavily developed and supported class in 4e and quite vividly popular.
 

Imaro

Imaro

Legend
Garthanos said:
Elric of Melnibone.. almost all sorcery is a ritual and evil. He uses a weapon instead (and it is evil too damn it). Ends up learning his morality by proxy from Barbarians because his civilized culture is immoral and he also stops wearing the Plate armor he after book one. ( Excuse for lighter armor because he has to be hopped up on drugs early on to wear it later the weapon gives him regeneration and mobility is better than armor )
Click to expand...

Lol... I was actually thinking Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser but yeah Elric will work as well.

To start you are wrong. Sorcery of the beast lords and elemental lords (just to give an example) is not evil. There are enchantments, minor runes and minor spells as well throughout the stories... Chaos in and of itself isn't evil, what evil act does Elric actually commit in order to use magic? It's mostly chanting, drugs, talismans and meditation. And yeah he doesn't use armor but others who don't share his weakened state do like Yyrkoon who is also a sorcerer. Elric himself is amoral (like most sowrd and sorcery heroes)... In fact about the only thing you have right is that the sword is evil.
 

D

DQDesign

Guest
Parmandur said:
I have no interest in being prescriptive, but am rather interested in understanding, in descriptive terms, what has happened and is happening, to better comprehend what may happen.

Setting aside the rather huge number of players who have only ever played 5E at this point, there are four logical extreme categories of players:

A.) Hated 4E, hate 5E

B.) Loved 4E, hate 5E

C.) Hated 4E, love 5E

D.) Loved 4E, love 5E

Obviously, there is going to be a great deal of nuance and shade here, but this is the basic square of opposition. C & D are the two most common reactions, with A probably being a distant third most common.

What I am interested in from these sorts of conversations, is understanding where people fall on this spectrum, and why.
Click to expand...
I'm type D. this is because, for me, d&d is good and funny mostly because of the large amount of beautiful, different settings developed for it during the years. for that reason I liked all the editions, finding each of them particulary suitable for one setting or the other. I found 2nd edition very good in dealing with Ravenloft Domains of Dread version, for example, 3rd very good for pre-netheril-coming-back forgotten realms, 3.5 for eberron and 4th for tactics-miniatures-based nentir vale dungeon crawl. I think 5th is good for any setting published up to now, but I think this is just the effect of having it built as a selection of the game design best practices in the 40 years of life of the brand, as explicitly cited by Mearls when he admitted of having played all dnd editions from 0 to 4 when developing 5th edition.
 

Imaro

Imaro

Legend
Garthanos said:
Yeh I am calling it so far from being perfect as to be insulting.

Note we arent discussing details like how to make it feel like the person has one "secret" vulnerable spot without making it ridiculously over powered. Even giving innate damage resistance would be hard pressed not to be. Takes extra damage from critical hits would not be a great off set but it would have the flavor.
Click to expand...

Well that's your call. For me 5e gets the feel close enough (while still maintaining playability of the game) using the methods [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] described above that it's not a concern for me.
 

Similar Threads

M.T. Black
Dragon Reflections #74
2 3 4 5
Replies
49
Views
11K
Oryzarius
Oryzarius
E
D&D 4E Guide to Itemisation in 4e
2
Replies
13
Views
2K
Exocist
E
darjr
D&D General The Resurrection of Mike Mearls Games.
23 24 25 26 27
Replies
264
Views
33K
Zaukrie
Z
M.T. Black
Dragon Reflections #71
2 3
Replies
21
Views
7K
Marc Radle
Marc Radle
Alzrius
D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
350 351 352 353 354
Replies
4K
Views
228K
Zardnaar
Zardnaar

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top