D&D 5E Is "perception" even a good concept?

Wiseblood · Jul 6, 2017

[MENTION=6801554]discosoc[/MENTION] I don't think perception is a good concept/mechanic. Posts so far have been giving advice on how to use it or implement changes to style so that its more/less potent I guess. I think that it is too vague, too important and is essentially a skill tax. Have you seen a party that did not have anyone proficient in it? Have you seen a party where almost everyone or in fact everyone has proficiency? It has been given the same importance a healing or melee. Perception is the constitution of skills, it's the second skill you pick.

ccs · Jul 6, 2017

I've got no problems with perception as is.

As a payer? I'll invest in perception if I think that fits the character.

As a DM? I don't use passive perception. Because I'm lazy & I'm not going to bother keeping track of some random bit of info that doesn't help me.
If I want you to know something, I'll tell you regardless of your score.
If I don't want you to know, I won't tell you.
If it's uncertain? Then I'll ask for a roll. I don't care if you or the rest of the table interpret low rolls/non-results as "I've missed something" so there's no point in me keeping the fact that there's been a check secret.

Yaarel · Jul 6, 2017

discosoc said:
How interesting of a character development choice is it really? I didn't mind so much back when it was split into several skills, but 5e Perception is really just an obvious pick for everyone in my experience. Does this bother anyone else?

I make Perception normally require two skill checks. The Perception check is just to determine if the character can even notice the faint sensory input.

After that a relevant skill check is necessary to determine if the character can figure out what these clues might mean.

For example, after you perceive some stray sight or sound, you can use your own Stealth check to recognize if someone is hiding. Because. Being good at hiding yourself, you know what clues to look for.

You can use an Arcane check to see if someone cast an Invisibility spell. Or so on.

Horwath · Jul 6, 2017

MechaPilot said:
Like most of the skill consolidation, I think it's great. It doesn't punish players who want their characters to be good at something general by forcing them to select more skills just to "notice things."

Also, it doesn't stop people from being creative with it if they want to. Just because your Perception modifier is +4, doesn't mean it has to be a +4 for all purposes. Want your character to be like Radar from M*A*S*H (for the young'uns: Radar wore glasses but could hear helicopters coming earlier than anyone else in the camp)? Sure, you can take a penalty to your vision and off set it with a bonus to your hearing.

Same thing with other skills. Are you from a mountainous area and can't swim? Take disadvantage on your Athletics checks to swim and get advantage on your checks to climb.

Actualy, Radar did not have good hearing. Best description of him was that he was slightly psychic. He "knew" that the choppers are comming, same way he knew what his C.O. wanted from him before he even said it.

Li Shenron · Jul 6, 2017

Saelorn said:
To contrast, the few times I played 3.5 after having played Pathfinder or 4E, I just didn't even bother. With two different skills for Spot and Listen, it meant a 50% chance that I wouldn't have a chance to detect an ambush, even if I did invest heavily in one of those skills, and those odds don't add up to a game I would want to play. I'll just take two other skills that might come up, and trust to the rogue or cleric to pay more attention.

With 5E, it comes back to how the DM runs it. If I'm going to need Perception and Investigation and Arcana in order to have a reasonable chance of not being surprised, then I won't bother.

If I get this right, your 3e DMs had you pass both a Spot check and a Listen check, or be surprised?

That's the opposite of how it goes IMXP, you always had to pass either a Spot check or a Listen check to notice an ambush (or a creature hiding for any other purpose). The tax was always on the defender who had to be both hiding and silent.

I was fine with having 2 separate skills. Using Listen for eavesdropping a conversation in a crowd or through a door, and using Spot to notice traps, hidden doors and other hard-to-see objects were worth the skill points investments alone IMHO.

A single Perception skill is very generous IMHO. It is definitely the most frequently used skill in the game. When I am the DM, I can always just increase the DC or not grant a check at all, but then this becomes unfair to those who didn't take the proficiency.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 6, 2017

Li Shenron said:
If I get this right, your 3e DMs had you pass both a Spot check and a Listen check, or be surprised?

No, it was usually one or the other, but which one was required depended on the circumstances. If they were invisible or otherwise out of sight, it was usually Listen; if they were actually hidden within sight, using the Hide skill or camouflage or something, then it was Spot.

Most NPCs or monsters that have ambush as their gimmick will focus on one or the other, with feats and magic items or racial bonuses to make them competitive against a rogue of their level (although they'll still be competent at the other skill, with max ranks but no other bonuses). As a player, I don't really know which one of those types I should be worried about, so if I max out my Listen because I'm afraid of ninjas then I have no chance of detecting the gargoyle in front of me; if I max out my Spot because I'm afraid of gargoyles, then I have no chance to notice the ninja.

Effectively, if you want a chance to notice anything before it gets you, it becomes a double cost skill even if both skills are on your class skill list. And given that I'm not willing to pay that price, but others are, that probably means it's pretty balanced in that way.

The Crimson Binome · Jul 6, 2017

Wiseblood said:
Perception is the constitution of skills, it's the second skill you pick.

The similarities are deeper than that. Both Perception and Constitution are useful for the same reason: They mean you (the player) aren't sitting out from the game.

If you miss a Perception check, and you don't get to act in the first round of combat, then you have to sit around and wait for twenty minutes instead of participating in the game. If you run out of HP before the end of the fight, then you have to sit around and wait for twenty minutes instead of participating in the game.

Imaculata · Jul 6, 2017

In my 3rd edition campaign I try to give every skill equal use. Spot and Listen are important, but so are Knowledge skills, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Search, etc. I think on average the players roll more for Knowledge skills than for Perception in my campaign.

Lanefan · Jul 6, 2017

Quickleaf said:
But if that's the approach you take (and it's a sensible one), Perception can start to encroach onto Investigation's territory... For example, if a player says "I smell the rags from the troglodyte we chased away. Is this troglodyte's smell similar to the one that stabbed Durkin? The DM needs to decide if this is the PC perceiving through their senses OR if it's the PC deducing a clue. This case feels like a 50/50 toss-up to me.

In cases like this, why not just kinda mush the two skills together?

As in, if something's reasonably easy to grok then the roll can use the higher of the character's two skills, but if it's particularly difficult (like trying to discern one trog's scent from another - how does one tell awful from awful anyway) it could be using the lower. In other cases, just use the average of the two skills.

Lanefan

Lanefan · Jul 6, 2017

Saelorn said:
If you miss a Perception check, and you don't get to act in the first round of combat, then you have to sit around and wait for twenty minutes instead of participating in the game.

The first round takes 20 minutes? Even with some participants (including you) not doing anything?

There's something to be said for party surprise rolls rather than individual perception checks - either the party's surprised or it's not, and if it is then the first "round" goes by pretty fast as only the opponents act. Ditto on the flip side, where the party catches the foes off guard.

Lan-"surprise!"-efan

D&D 5E Is "perception" even a good concept?

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