D&D 5E Strength bows?

clearstream · Nov 5, 2017

cbwjm said:
I think back when this discussion first started I created the composite property for shotbows and longbows. There were three levels equating to strength scores of 15, 17, and 19 and each level increased the die size by 1 step (1d12 became 2d6) and increased the maximum range by 10, 20, or 40%.

Without the required strength you had disadvantage on the attack roll when using them and did not gain the increases.

Something like that seems about right. I feel cautious of giving bows a straight damage upgrade for characters with lucky ability arrays. It also seems right to me to keep SS apart from GWM through retaining Dexterity for the attack.

So in my campaign I'm thinking of using

Mighty Weapon Property
Composite Longbows (150gp) have the mighty weapon property. When making an attack with a mighty weapon, you use your Strength modifier for the damage rolls.

Which makes a Strength-based character a bit better at ranged. I'm not applying a Strength limitation because this would be of little benefit to a character without at least 12 anyway. I'm also not worrying about making the bow for the user's Strength (even though that could feel more realistic) because I want to keep the rule streamlined and chances are it wouldn't come up all that often in a way that mattered. (Maybe a magical one, but I could always just make that one an exception and give it a Strength requirement.)

Ilbranteloth · Nov 8, 2017

cbwjm said:
I think back when this discussion first started I created the composite property for shotbows and longbows. There were three levels equating to strength scores of 15, 17, and 19 and each level increased the die size by 1 step (1d12 became 2d6) and increased the maximum range by 10, 20, or 40%.

Without the required strength you had disadvantage on the attack roll when using them and did not gain the increases.

Boop!

Seems reasonable enough to me, although I wouldn't tie it to being a composite bow.

English warbows were self-bows made from a single piece of wood, and were arguably some of the most powerful traditional bows ever made.

The main difference is that a composite bow can be made with materials to take advantage of their different properties, making it possible to design a smaller bow with power similar to that of a long self-bow. Why would you want a smaller (short) bow? Because you can use it while mounted, and you might not have access to good wood.

Self-bows (longbows) would be the most common bow issued for military service since they are the easiest to make. If appropriate wood is not available, then laminated longbows would be the next option since they are still fairly easy to make, and are otherwise very similar. Composite bows, on the other hand, would almost always be shortbows, and most common in areas where good wood isn't available, and mounted use is prevalent. They would also be favored by individuals that travel and can afford them (that is, adventurers).

In my campaign, short bows have a maximum Strength capability of +2. Composite shortbows, on the other hand, can have up to a +4 bonus, with a warbow (longbow) up to +5. Longbows are impractical indoors/underground, and cannot be used while mounted.

Garthanos · Sep 8, 2018

El Mahdi said:
Putting this all together as applies to attacks with bows; in real life:
Strength allows you to effectively draw the bow and "hold" the draw in a stable manner (not shaking due to exertion).
Dexterity allows you to use your eyes in concert with your muscles and limbs to accurately aim your shot.
Intelligence informs you of where to hit; where's the weak spots in the armor? - where's the vital spots on the targets body?
Wisdom informs you of when the moment is right; and tactically, how it relates to the greater fight.
Will allows you to control your emotions of the situation; to mentally counteract (as much as possible) your adrenaline (anyone who's ever been in real combat will tell you this is most certainly a factor that cannot be ignored).

But that's reality, not D&D.

Yup and you probably left out many things as well..

Back when I first started playing D&D I balked really badly at one attribute actions this was because of things my father who had been in the martial arts had explained however later I took it as a simplification of using a particular style.

Every combatant is using all these things some just emphasize one more than the others and that is what the stat represents a methodology or style it doesnt represent just using that one attribute.

In this paradigm using Strength and Zen Archery use a different attribute as their basis and knowing how to use either costs a feat OR as a feature of the non-existent Warlord class which 4e had its ranged attacks used Strength. (See Odysseus for the inspiration for this).

Pauln6 · Sep 8, 2018

Our characters were converted from earlier editions so Deathdart, our barbarian's mighty longbow was just tweaked so there is a strength minimum and if strong enough, the wielder adds strength to damage instead of dex. The bow can't be used while the wielder is weakened.

It gives a small but thematic boost that should not mess with balance. Any player who wants strength to hit as well as damage is probably just trying to circumvent this aspect of game balance IMO.

smbakeresq · Sep 8, 2018

To me there is clearly a place for them. Odysseus wouldn’t be possible RAW, that’s not right. But it is an easy fix.

If you are going to do that though you should also up the damage of crossbows, which is much higher then represented in game.

Garthanos · Sep 8, 2018

Sunseeker said:
So? That character already exists: the Dex fighter. High AC. High to-hit. High damage.

Allowing str to achieve the same thing (besides AC of course) really doesn't change anything at all. It just opens up an option for players who want to be burly instead of limber.

This right here... Its really about flavor. There is myth and legend about the Strength using archer and enabling it in some fashion whether as a class feature or item makes sense.

Heck a fighting style involving more attack deflection using your strength seems like it works thematically to get that armor class you mentioned. (restrict it to when using light armor)

Oofta · Sep 8, 2018

Garthanos said:
This right here... Its really about flavor. There is myth and legend about the Strength using archer and enabling it in some fashion whether as a class feature or item makes sense.

Heck a fighting style involving more attack deflection using your strength seems like it works thematically to get that armor class you mentioned.

I agree, and it's more than just myth. English longbow draw weight vary, but estimates are up to 180 pounds (others put it at around 100). You need to be reasonably strong to draw even an 70 pound bow. I allow "strength bows" and have considered limiting dex-based bows to short bows to be more realistic. Of course D&D isn't particularly realistic anyway, but this one just bugs me.

As far the strength adding to AC, maybe a half feat? Hmmm...

Greg Benage · Sep 8, 2018

From Dragon Heist:

Oversized Longbow

This unique weapon can be used only by a Medium or larger creature that has a Strength of 18 or higher. The bow shoots oversized arrows that deal piercing damage equal to 2d6 + the wielder's Strength modifier. Its range is the same as an ordinary longbow.

Garthanos · Sep 8, 2018

Oofta said:
I agree, and it's more than just myth. English longbow draw weight vary, but estimates are up to 180 pounds (others put it at around 100). You need to be reasonably strong to draw even an 70 pound bow. I allow "strength bows" and have considered limiting dex-based bows to short bows to be more realistic. Of course D&D isn't particularly realistic anyway, but this one just bugs me.

As far the strength adding to AC, maybe a half feat? Hmmm...

Could perhaps even give a +1 strength with it.

Garthanos · Sep 8, 2018

smbakeresq said:
To me there is clearly a place for them. Odysseus wouldn’t be possible RAW, that’s not right. But it is an easy fix.

Any post about Strength bow HAS to mention Odysseus.

smbakeresq said:
If you are going to do that though you should also up the damage of crossbows, which is much higher then represented in game.

I think de-emphasizing crossbows might be appropriate in genre

D&D 5E Strength bows?

clearstream

(He, Him)

Ilbranteloth

Explorer

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Pauln6

Hero

smbakeresq

Explorer

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Oofta

Legend

Greg Benage

Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Garthanos

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