D&D 5E We need more Int/Str/Cha saving throws

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 17, 2013

I bet there is some concern that spells that require Intelligence saves will be too effective against the wide variety of low intelligence monsters that are otherwise dangerous.

That said, I still think that Illusions requiring an Intelligence save feels right.

Jester David · Apr 18, 2013

I don't think they should add more options just to add options. We don't needs spells whose sole purpose is hitting a seldom used save.

But when updating the monsters and spells they should keep an eye out for situations where they can work those saves into the game naturally, when the save works better.

I'm A Banana · Apr 18, 2013

I kind of like the proposed split between "active" stats (that you make checks with) and "passive" stats (that you make saves with).

So, for Illusions: you wouldn't make an Int save. Rather, the illusion would work...unless you made an Int check. The spell would demand that you do something active to contra-dict it, it's not something you're going to notice without effort.

Similarly with spells that, say, entangle you. Rather than make a Str save, you make a Str check to free yourself, on your turn. You must do something active to contradict it.

Even those few spells that are Cha saves right now might be better served either being Wis saves, or being flipped to being Cha checks that can negate the spell.

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 18, 2013

Kamikaze Midget said:
I kind of like the proposed split between "active" stats (that you make checks with) and "passive" stats (that you make saves with).

So, for Illusions: you wouldn't make an Int save. Rather, the illusion would work...unless you made an Int check. The spell would demand that you do something active to contra-dict it, it's not something you're going to notice without effort.

Similarly with spells that, say, entangle you. Rather than make a Str save, you make a Str check to free yourself, on your turn. You must do something active to contradict it.

Even those few spells that are Cha saves right now might be better served either being Wis saves, or being flipped to being Cha checks that can negate the spell.

It's an valid thought. Personally, I don't think any of it should necessarily be forced. Make it a check when it's an active decision, and a save when it's not. There really isn't a functional difference between the two anymore.

Spreading out the checks and saves should mostly be an exercise in better defining the different ability scores.

I'm beginning to think that the whole concept of willpower should be moved to Charisma. One's will and one's sense of self are basically the same thing. Let wisdom be more clearly defined as intuition and faith. This better fits with the distinction between wizards, clerics, and sorcerers.

billd91 · Apr 18, 2013

Jester Canuck said:
I don't think they should add more options just to add options. We don't needs spells whose sole purpose is hitting a seldom used save.

If they want to make sure some stats aren't dominant ones for saves, then yes, they may have to do so. I'm not sure it's necessary yet as long as they repurpose some existing spells to hit Intelligence and Charisma. But that's part of game design.

hbarsquared · Apr 18, 2013

First, I agree with looking at the Bestiary for determining the abilities that characters must use in saves, not just spells.

Second, since checks and saves are equivalent in terms of bonuses, each spell/monster ability should call out the Ability for the Save (the immediate save for half damage) or the Check to Make (action on your turn to escape), or even both! (Illusions: Wis save, and an Int check in following rounds?)

If you include both options, perhaps it would be easier to hit all Abilities. I do think it is important to hit all abilities, as either a Save or a Check to escape. Again, not exactly evenly, but [MENTION=52734]Stormonu[/MENTION]'s list as well as [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION]'s suggestion of taking into account the horribleness of the effect.

I'm A Banana · Apr 18, 2013

Jeff Carlsen said:
Personally, I don't think any of it should necessarily be forced.

I agree, but I actually think it might be forced to try and make Charisma equal Willpower, or to ask for spells to be somewhat-arbitrarily assigned to Str or Int saves just to keep some sort of artificial equivalence between the scores in play.

When I think about how these abilities are naturally used, in at least my games, they rather naturally fall into three active and three passive abilities. You use Dex, Con, and Wis to avoid effects, and Str, Int, and Cha to do things to others. Without it being forced, I can easily see this working.

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 18, 2013

Kamikaze Midget said:
I agree, but I actually think it might be forced to try and make Charisma equal Willpower, or to ask for spells to be somewhat-arbitrarily assigned to Str or Int saves just to keep some sort of artificial equivalence between the scores in play.

I've long felt that attributing willpower to wisdom was unnatural. Which isn't to say that Charisma is a perfect fit either. One can be stubborn and unlikeable. But It's not as big a stretch to equate willpower, force of personality, and social presence as it is to equate willpower with intuition.

zoroaster100 · Apr 18, 2013

I don't understand why Gust of Wind wasn't made a Strength save. Isn't that exactly the spell that should require a Strength save?

Li Shenron · Apr 18, 2013

Dausuul said:
Fair points, but in that case I'd say the Bestiary is what we should be looking at. PCs are much more likely to have to save against monster abilities than spells.

Yes, this is true!

Maybe I'll take a look at the monsters and make a list for them also!