Canadian Federal Elections, eh

Ryujin · Aug 10, 2015

goldomark said:
I bet you use the imperial system instead of the metric one.

I'm bisystemal. I was in high school when Metrification was completed.

I have no issue with renegociating interest rates, I have issues with prioritizing paying back the debt over prioritizing economic recovery and growth.

And you are making me defend economic growth. Growth is not that viable if we consider that trying to fulfill the unlimited needs of a ever growing population with limited resources is one of capitalism's flaws. You happy now?

I see things that help minimize what is taken out of the average citizen's pocket as being good for the economy. After all, this giving breaks to corporations thing hasn't done anything more than raise their bottom line and give some fat cats thicker pocket linings. Yes, a certain base level of taxation is definitely needed and I'm all for a social safety net, but we also have to be far more circumspect in how we spend that money. We also have to realize that making sweeping changes like universal daycare has an ultimate effect on the cost of living, just as having the majority of households have two incomes had an effect.

If you speak English and say Parizeau's name three time while looking in a mirror, he appears and makes you eat poutine.

Dammit! That explains Saturday's lunch at Shannonville Motorsports Park. I can blame him for the 20 pounds that I need to lose.

That is true, but that comes from being in Canada. A country with a small population can only have so many economic centers. Toronto is Canada's economic center and head offices tend to congregate at the same place. Head offices moving to Toronto has been a trend since before the 1960s when the independence movement coalesced into its modern form. If Québec was an independent nation, corporations would need to have head offices here.

Nope, the corps would just do what the larger multi-nationals do with Canada; run everything out of The US, with token offices in Canada. You'd have two or three man operations as the "Quebec Head Office."

Section 36 of the Constitution garanties equalization payments. So it is in your interest to get rid of Québec so we aren't a burden to you anymore. Once we leave you do not have to pay us any equalization payments. Seems like sweet deal for the both of us.

You don't have to convince me. Right after you pay off your portion of the National Debt....

Negociations. Québec and Canada could still share some institutions, like currency, if both parties agree to it. Of course, if negociations fail, Québec could end up with its own currency. Some people could think it is in Québec's interests to have its own too, so who knows. Tar Sand Dutch Disease wasn't a thing in 1995. It isn't like the Canadian dollar wouldn't be recognized the morning after a victorious referendum. So, for a while at least, we'd still have the same currency.

Divorces are rarely amicable and money is a frequent sticking point

Why wouldn't it? Hydro-Québec, a public corporation, signed a deal with a province. Happens all the time. It isn't like the institutions that signed the deal ceased to exist. Québec signs deals with other nations and states all the time. They would still be in affect. They might need renegociations since some restrictions from Ottawa might disappear and new elements pop up, but they would still be in affect like any contract. Depending on the deal, it won't be in anyone's interests to say the deals are now void. If they were signed in the first place it is because both parties benefited from it.

At the very least renegotiation. At worst placed in abeyance.

On that you are mistaken. Independentist leaders really thought out the consequences of what they were doing. Maybe it is Canada that has more to lose than us.

Oh, I have no dount that they thought out every little detail. They just chose not to share those details with the Quebecois people

The problem with Greece right now is that people are starving thanks to austerity and there is no end in sight. If they had printed money their economy might already be doing better, like in Iceland, and people would be starving. Or just killing themselves.

Actually it goes a bit further back than that. As I intimated earlier they first starved their government, while continuing to live their lives as if they were flush with cash. Then they took a bail-out from the major European players, to get themselves back on their feet, but instead continued to live their lives as if they were flush. Then they elected a government that told them they had done nothing wrong and owed nothing to anyone. They're wrong. It reminds me of the selfish, do nothing relative who never seems to have a job, lives by borrowing money from every relative in sight and, once all the possible sources of money through relatives have been exhausted, comes to terms with reality. Or more likely not.

Kaodi · Aug 11, 2015

Ryujin said:
Dammit! That explains Saturday's lunch at Shannonville Motorsports Park. I can blame him for the 20 pounds that I need to lose.

Sorry if we already treaded this ground in a previous thread but do you live in Hastings-Lennox & Addington or one of the nearby ridings?

Ryujin · Aug 11, 2015

Kaodi said:
Sorry if we already treaded this ground in a previous thread but do you live in Hastings-Lennox & Addington or one of the nearby ridings?

No, I'm in Brampton, but I spend a goodly number of my summer weekends in Shannonville as a motorsports (motorcycle racing) photographer and stay with a friend in Napanee when I'm there.

Ryujin · Aug 11, 2015

Kaodi said:
Not sure how true that is yet. World has steadily gotten less violent. Sounds kind of better to me. Not that that is guaranteed to keep happening in the future. But the important question to ask really is under what circumstances most people on Earth will wish they had never been born.

Greater disparity between the rich and poor in developed nations. Higher taxes on the dwindling Middle Class (however you define that) to make up for the taxes we're no longer taking from the truly wealthy. The resurgence of religious extremism. The Balkanization of nations.

Kramodlog · Aug 11, 2015

Ryujin said:
I'm bisystemal. I was in high school when Metrification was completed.

Were dinosaurs as big as they say?

I see things that help minimize what is taken out of the average citizen's pocket as being good for the economy. After all, this giving breaks to corporations thing hasn't done anything more than raise their bottom line and give some fat cats thicker pocket linings. Yes, a certain base level of taxation is definitely needed and I'm all for a social safety net, but we also have to be far more circumspect in how we spend that money. We also have to realize that making sweeping changes like universal daycare has an ultimate effect on the cost of living, just as having the majority of households have two incomes had an effect.

Tax breaks are a tool to develop or help certain sectors of the economy at certain times. Like all tools they just need to be used properly and they usually aren't.

Ottawa is mostly circumspect on how it spents money. Debt is at 30% of GDP, the budget was almost balanced and the Tories have been cutting spending like crazy, no matter the impact. How they managed taxes is a disaster. Those tax breaks are money we need that they throw out the window.

Universal daycare will have sweeping changes, like universal schooling did. For the better. It will be less of a burden for the middle class as daycare cost is prohibitive and the poor just can't afford it. Some women just quit their job or work less. Whether women work or not, it means households have less income to save or make big purchases like a house. There will still be a cost, but it will be distributed among everyone and we all benefit from it, like we all benefit from public schooling.

Join us, join the collectivist side.

Dammit! That explains Saturday's lunch at Shannonville Motorsports Park. I can blame him for the 20 pounds that I need to lose.

Cardio-vascular diseases is our revenge! Mouahahahahaha!

Nope, the corps would just do what the larger multi-nationals do with Canada; run everything out of The US, with token offices in Canada. You'd have two or three man operations as the "Quebec Head Office."

To over simpify, if they have a head office, they pay taxes. Mouahahahahaha!

You don't have to convince me. Right after you pay off your portion of the National Debt....

Heh. If Québec becomes independent we'll take our share with us. No worries. There is no need to pay it off first.

Divorces are rarely amicable and money is a frequent sticking point

We'll forced marriages are rarely a joy ride in the first place. I'm pretty sure there will be bitterness after Québec does its own thing, but some negociations will have to happen on some issues. After a certain time, when some are less bitter, others negociations will happen. The US rebelled against the Brits, but they are best buds now. The same will happen to us, as we have mutal interest, a common history and we can't go back to Europe. The only difference is that we'll negociate them like equals. Together, we'll be racist and oppressive to Natives like it was always ment to be! /wipes tear

At the very least renegotiation. At worst placed in abeyance.

Why abeyance?

Oh, I have no dount that they thought out every little detail. They just chose not to share those details with the Quebecois people

Like what?

Actually it goes a bit further back than that. As I intimated earlier they first starved their government, while continuing to live their lives as if they were flush with cash. Then they took a bail-out from the major European players, to get themselves back on their feet, but instead continued to live their lives as if they were flush.

They never took a "bail out". The money the European Union gave to Greece was borrowed money to repay their borrowed money. Less then 10% went into the Greece economy, the rest just want to banks.

Germany is seen as almost a victim of Greek's boondoggle, but it is lending money to Greece at huge interets rates and none of it is helping Greece get back on its feet. The worst part is that to get these loans, Greece has to pludge into austerity and that doesn't help its economy one bit. Only people suffer. Thomas Piketty explains why Germany is being hypocritical with Greece as it benefited from generous help after WWII.

Kaodi · Aug 11, 2015

goldomark said:
Heh. If Québec becomes independent we'll take our share with us. No worries. There is no need to pay it off first.

In my experience few separatists are so practical as to share your position that Quebec must take responsibility for its share of the debt. Most think they can shirk it because of the tomfoolery of legal entities. I would appreciate if you would at least forcefully convince your brethren of the error of that way,

.

Ryujin · Aug 11, 2015

goldomark said:
Were dinosaurs as big as they say?

Don't let anyone fool you. They were mostly smallish.

... and plastic.

Tax breaks are a tool to develop or help certain sectors of the economy at certain times. Like all tools they just need to be used properly and they usually aren't.

Ottawa is mostly circumspect on how it spents money. Debt is at 30% of GDP, the budget was almost balanced and the Tories have been cutting spending like crazy, no matter the impact. How they managed taxes is a disaster. Those tax breaks are money we need that they throw out the window.

Universal daycare will have sweeping changes, like universal schooling did. For the better. It will be less of a burden for the middle class as daycare cost is prohibitive and the poor just can't afford it. Some women just quit their job or work less. Whether women work or not, it means households have less income to save or make big purchases like a house. There will still be a cost, but it will be distributed among everyone and we all benefit from it, like we all benefit from public schooling.

Join us, join the collectivist side.

Ottawa has been giving tax breaks to industries that don't need them. The oil industry?! Patent toadying to their funding base. For a "conservative" government they've been spending like drunken sailors on shore leave in Thailand. The Liberals cut the debt and eliminated the deficit. Seriously; the LIBERALS. The Conservatives immediately started paying off those who put them in power, after having decried it in the Liberals. They ran deficits in every budget, starting with a larger one than the worst the Liberals had in their previous run. They claim to balanced the budget this time around but only by dipping into a fund that they shouldn't have touched, and so didn't balance. And yes, all this while reducing the amount of money they had coming in with which to pay their operating costs.

Yeaaaaaaaah, I'd rather stay on the "personal freedoms and responsibilities" side

Cardio-vascular diseases is our revenge! Mouahahahahaha!

To over simpify, if they have a head office, they pay taxes. Mouahahahahaha!

Appropriating your cuisine is my revenge!

Small office, small cash-flow. Small taxes.

Heh. If Québec becomes independent we'll take our share with us. No worries. There is no need to pay it off first.

Well Canada would no longer be a guarantor for Quebec's loans, so that would be up to the creditors

We'll forced marriages are rarely a joy ride in the first place. I'm pretty sure there will be bitterness after Québec does its own thing, but some negociations will have to happen on some issues. After a certain time, when some are less bitter, others negociations will happen. The US rebelled against the Brits, but they are best buds now. The same will happen to us, as we have mutal interest, a common history and we can't go back to Europe. The only difference is that we'll negociate them like equals. Together, we'll be racist and oppressive to Natives like it was always ment to be! /wipes tear

That would be the common history that Quebec doesn't want to be a part of anymore?

It's not so much a marriage, as it is a conquest. It's just that unlike so many other conquests in history, the winners didn't subjugate, assimilate, or eliminate the losers. To walk away from that is spitting in the face of history and all those forward thinkers who believed that disparate peoples could live together as a nation, rather than trying to kill each other every few decades. The "oppression" talk is based upon a lot of trumped-up 'history.' Things could have gone much differently after The Plains of Abraham, as they did in so many other places.

Why abeyance?

If the terms under which the original agreements were negotiated no longer apply, then the contracts involved could easily be seen as in abeyance.

Like what?

I already mentioned transfer payments, currency, etc. Those are the sort of things that Separatists tend to dismiss with a hand-wave, but which have much deeper implications. Quebec can't unilaterally declare something is so, if it's dependent upon the rest of Canada acquiescing.

They never took a "bail out". The money the European Union gave to Greece was borrowed money to repay their borrowed money. Less then 10% went into the Greece economy, the rest just want to banks.

Germany is seen as almost a victim of Greek's boondoggle, but it is lending money to Greece at huge interets rates and none of it is helping Greece get back on its feet. The worst part is that to get these loans, Greece has to pludge into austerity and that doesn't help its economy one bit. Only people suffer. Thomas Piketty explains why Germany is being hypocritical with Greece as it benefited from generous help after WWII.

If you never intend to pay iot back, it becomes a "bail-out." As I said, the history of the Greeks' problems is longer than a couple of loans.

Kramodlog · Aug 11, 2015

Kaodi said:
In my experience few separatists are so practical as to share your position that Quebec must take responsibility for its share of the debt. Most think they can shirk it because of the tomfoolery of legal entities. I would appreciate if you would at least forcefully convince your brethren of the error of that way, .

I've never heard this position from anyone. Ordinary citizen, politicians or intellectuals.

Kramodlog · Aug 11, 2015

Ryujin said:
Don't let anyone fool you. They were mostly smallish.

... and plastic.

Its fantastic!

Ottawa has been giving tax breaks to industries that don't need them. The oil industry?! Patent toadying to their funding base. For a "conservative" government they've been spending like drunken sailors on shore leave in Thailand.

Yeah, those are the bad tax breaks I've mentioned.

The Liberals cut the debt and eliminated the deficit. Seriously; the LIBERALS.

It isn't that much of a shocker. Parties try to depict other parties in certain ways, but it doesn't always reflect the truth. Mulcaire's NDP is facing the same sort of propaganda. They haven't been in power in Ottawa and yet people in this thread already think they'll plunge Ottawa in deficite.

My biggest issue with the liberals in Ottawa eliminating the deficite in the 90s is that they just transfered the deficite to the provinces. For example, Ottawa use to finance 50% of healthcare, now it is around 20%. It is the provinces that picked up the burden. It is pretty easy to make cuts when voters won't know you're behind them.

The Conservatives immediately started paying off those who put them in power, after having decried it in the Liberals. They ran deficits in every budget, starting with a larger one than the worst the Liberals had in their previous run. They claim to balanced the budget this time around but only by dipping into a fund that they shouldn't have touched, and so didn't balance. And yes, all this while reducing the amount of money they had coming in with which to pay their operating costs.

More reasons to vote NDP. NDP, it is more than just lustrous facial hair.

Yeaaaaaaaah, I'd rather stay on the "personal freedoms and responsibilities" side

What freedoms are you afraid to lose with the NDP?

Small office, small cash-flow. Small taxes.

Not necessarely. Depends on the corporation and what it needs for operations. Uber has a small staff in Montréal, but their cash flow should be interesting.

Well Canada would no longer be a guarantor for Quebec's loans, so that would be up to the creditors

Maybe it is the opposite.

Québec has been free of debt for the large part of its existence. Merging with it was attractive for a indebted Ontario in 1841. Works like the transcanadian railway was in large part paid by us.

That would be the common history that Quebec doesn't want to be a part of anymore?

The conquest, the colonialism, the oppression, the exploitation, the assimilation, the betrayals, the racism...

It's not so much a marriage, as it is a conquest. It's just that unlike so many other conquests in history, the winners ~~didn't~~ subjugated the defeated, but didn't manage to completely assimilate, or eliminate the losers.

Fixed.

Refering to conquerors and the conquered as "winners" and "losers" presents war as a game. It is quit the distortion of what conquest is. Remember, it was 1760. It wasn't the politically correct invasion of Iraq we get to see today.

To walk away from that is spitting in the face of history

The Brits and Canadians pissed enough on us that I have no shame to walk away from that. It is self-respect. The history you were thaught doesn't reflect what really happened. I see no reason to rejoy at thinking of our benevolent oppressors who told us to "speak white" when we talked french in front of them. It is pure racism and shows the kind of open hate we faced. The difference 30 years after the civil rights movement and the Quiet Revolution, racism is more hidden. No one will say "speak white" to your face, but you turn on a radio and you'll hear enough Québec bashing to know. If it were only that, that would be one thing, but it isn't. It is about being second class citizens.

I already mentioned transfer payments, currency, etc. Those are the sort of things that Separatists tend to dismiss with a hand-wave, but which have much deeper implications. Quebec can't unilaterally declare something is so, if it's dependent upon the rest of Canada acquiescing.

I've talked about currency, the potential outcomes and how a weak dollar benefits Québec when in 1980 it was supposed to be our doom. It isn't like there hasn't been a new currency that pop up in the world in the last 50 years.

I've also mentioned transfers payments. We pay taxes to Ottawa. Those taxes would be sent to Québec instead, but we wouldn't have to pay twice for the same services or institutions. Like say we would have no need for two ministry of health and two agencies that collect taxes. The exercise has been done before and it balances. In practice will it? Only one way to found out, but a huge gap is not disastrous. And who knows, maybe we'll save money. Transfers payments is just getting the money we already send to Ottawa.

If you never intend to pay iot back, it becomes a "bail-out."

Who said they do not want to pay it back? If they could print money, like they did in the past, it would certainly be easier.

As I said, the history of the Greeks' problems is longer than a couple of loans.

I know, I've mentione a few of them in this thread.

Ryujin · Aug 11, 2015

goldomark said:
My biggest issue with the liberals in Ottawa eliminating the deficite in the 90s is that they just transfered the deficite to the provinces. For example, Ottawa use to finance 50% of healthcare, now it is around 20%. It is the provinces that picked up the burden. It is pretty easy to make cuts when voters won't know you're behind them.

As much as i don't appreciate the downloading, at least it wasn't hidden. It was all out in the open, for the electorate to see. That might have been open government. It might have been arrogance. What it wasn't, was sneaky.

More reasons to vote NDP. NDP, it is more than just lustrous facial hair.

Why; because they haven't been given their turn to screw up yet?

I'm opposed to the Conservatives for reasons of government opacity and failure to provide good governance. I'm largely opposed to the Liberals because Trudeau hasn't seen a foot that he didn't think would fit perfectly in his mouth. (People tend to forget, but Harper was damned near as bad when he took over the Conservative helm) I oppose the NDP for their platform. And I'm a union member. And a worker in higher education.

What freedoms are you afraid to lose with the NDP?

I would lose the freedom to not pay for other people's kids. I would lose the freedom to not see my taxes rise to cover the costs of issues I don't care about. I would lose the freedom to not support a candidate who likes to cozy up to Separatists.

Not necessarely. Depends on the corporation and what it needs for operations. Uber has a small staff in Montréal, but their cash flow should be interesting.

Uber flouts the law and has people working for it who neither pay their taxes, nor carry appropriate insurance on a vehicle used for business. They're a completely different kettle of 4 week old unrefrigerated codfish.

Maybe it is the opposite. Québec has been free of debt for the large part of its existence. Merging with it was attractive for a indebted Ontario in 1841. Works like the transcanadian railway was in large part paid by us.

As to the current situation, I point to the transfer payments that I previously mentioned. Ontario is the cash cow

The conquest, the colonialism, the oppression, the exploitation, the assimilation, the betrayals, the racism...

No moreso than for my Scottish ancestors

Fixed.

Refering to conquerors and the conquered as "winners" and "losers" presents war as a game. It is quit the distortion of what conquest is. Remember, it was 1760. It wasn't the politically correct invasion of Iraq we get to see today.

The Brits and Canadians pissed enough on us that I have no shame to walk away from that. It is self-respect. The history you were thaught doesn't reflect what really happened. I see no reason to rejoy at thinking of our benevolent oppressors who told us to "speak white" when we talked french in front of them. It is pure racism and shows the kind of open hate we faced. The difference 30 years after the civil rights movement and the Quiet Revolution, racism is more hidden. No one will say "speak white" to your face, but you turn on a radio and you'll hear enough Québec bashing to know. If it were only that, that would be one thing, but it isn't. It is about being second class citizens.

Broken.

No, it wasn't a game. In war there are winners and losers.

Quebec currently has more real political power, in Canada, than does any other Province in Confederation. Quebec flexes its electoral muscles and Federal political leaders quiver. Money streams into the Province above and beyond levels reasonable for just reasons of redistribution. I would say that the history you were taught isn't all that accurate either.

In Ontario we still live with the legacies of bringing Quebec into the fold. Our Catholic School Boards exist because of it.

I've talked about currency, the potential outcomes and how a weak dollar benefits Québec when in 1980 it was supposed to be our doom. It isn't like there hasn't been a new currency that pop up in the world in the last 50 years.

I've also mentioned transfers payments. We pay taxes to Ottawa. Those taxes would be sent to Québec instead, but we wouldn't have to pay twice for the same services or institutions. Like say we would have no need for two ministry of health and two agencies that collect taxes. The exercise has been done before and it balances. In practice will it? Only one way to found out, but a huge gap is not disastrous. And who knows, maybe we'll save money. Transfers payments is just getting the money we already send to Ottawa.

Who said they do not want to pay it back? If they could print money, like they did in the past, it would certainly be easier.

I know, I've mentione a few of them in this thread.

Quebec receives back billions of dollars more, from the Federal Government, than it pays out to it. That's not as bad as for example what PEI or Nunavut receives, per capita, but make no mistake that there would be a rather large additional bill to pay of the Federal government wasn't sending money Quebec's way.

Even Ontario has become a have-not Province recently, because of the decimation of manufacturing in this Province, but it's just a few percentage points.