Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
As I posted upthread, I'm not that interested in RPGing as puzzle-solving. If you enjoy it, then go for it!

It's probably a good thing that sort of thing isn't about puzzle solving then. The hidden backstory about the kidnapped daughter provides motivation and reason for the interaction between the baron and the advisor. The PCs may find out about it, or they may not. If they do find out about it, they may care or they may not. If they care they may do something about it, or they may not. It's not something for them to solve. It's simply part of the world for them to roleplay off of if they find out about it, and to roleplay off of via the impact it has on the baron and advisor if they do not find out about it.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
[The GM's] job it is to keep track of the backstory, frame scenes according to dramatic needs (that is, go where the action is) and provoke thematic moments . . . by introducing complications. . . .





This is still where I disagree. Or at least rubs me wrong.


I don't frame based on dramatic needs. The drama occurs in the course of the story the players write in the world I present. I see myself as an impartial referee in that regard.


I realize that I'm the one who populates the world, develops the schemes and plots, decides what the NPCs and monsters do, etc. But when I frame scenes, it's not really for dramatic effect. Here's the facts, do with it what you will. I think of it like walking outside your door, or walking down a busy city street. There's the physical description of the city street itself, then there are people, engaged in various activities and such. Some are friendly and say, "hi," while others keep their eyes down to avoid conversation. There might be something exciting happen - a tavern fight, or somebody chasing somebody, perhaps a thief that stole somebody's purse. Sometimes something more direct and confrontational happens, like a group of thugs wanting to remove the PCs of their valuables.


While that sort of encounter may provide a dramatic scene, it's really up to the players/PCs to do something with it. Just like if you were on the streets of NY and a group of thugs came up and confronted you. I have no specific concern for the dramatic needs, that's not inherently my job.


Sure, I also provide story arcs for the NPCs, monsters, and such, and the players intersect with those - but until the PCs do something, until they latch onto something and run with it, there really isn't any drama. And yes, that approach is perfectly valid way to handle things, but it's not the way I do. Essentially, my approach is an extension of the classic dungeon crawl. Open the door, see what's behind it.


I do provide plot hooks, including as many as I can that connect to backstories and such. But they are still just things. I'm not writing the drama, just the facts. The players provide the drama. In my campaign, the ranger was sold into slavery by his brother, after killing their father. So sure, I provided some dramatic framing. But from there, it's all a question of what they do. They did spend time looking for clues, etc, hunting down his brother. So I got the ball rolling at the beginning. But it only had some dramatic purpose because they players decided that it was worth following.


I also don't consider it my job to "introduce complications." I get that games like BW/DW specifically work that into the rules. That's one of the reasons I don't like them. While I agree that a failed skill check can include more than just success or failure, and they can include some incidental complications or consequences, I don't like the systems that focus on the DM generating a new complication that goes beyond that.


In an earlier thread, there was a discussion about what could be included in a climb check. One of the examples was the Mission Impossible scene, hanging from a rope to disarm a trap without touching the floor. This was a LARP example, and what actually happened in real life is the guy's gun fell out of its holster, he almost caught it, but then dropped it, and it set off the trap.


I think that's a perfectly reasonable consequence of a climbing failure in that particular situation. While there are other possible consequences, the fact that they are hanging upside down specifically creates a scenario that wouldn't occur unless they were in a situation like this - the gun falling out of the holster since they are upside down. If they hadn't thought to secure the gun, then a failed check could include the gun falling. Like in real life, there's a chance to catch it (a Dexterity check or save), otherwise further consequences occur. While this could be considered a "complication" I see it as less, simply a consequence dictated by the laws of gravity and a failure to consider it.


On the other hand, when the DM is instructed to introduce a complication, I've seen all sorts of far reaching complications. For example, on the failed climb check, the DM introduces somebody starting to unlock the door to the room because they forgot something. But it doesn't seem to have a direct correlation to the failed climbing check. Or if there are guards outside, the failed climb check causes the character to sneeze.


Part of the reason is that in the framing/complication model, the check is usually not for a skill, but directed toward the goal. The goal here not being caught. So failure means that anything is possible that might prevent that goal from succeeding. For whatever reason, that approach rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it has to do with the GM having too much freedom to alter the course of the story, where I prefer that the majority of the story to be driven by the PCs themselves.


The Star Wars example, Luke's family being killed, is pretty dramatic. I probably wouldn't ever spring a consequence like that without some pre-planning. In other words, it wouldn't be created on the fly to introduce a complication. The story arc itself is OK. The stormtroopers are following the droids, and killing witnesses. There really isn't any possibility of figuring that out, or any warning. So if Luke purchases those droids, then the direction is set, it's a question as to who is home when it happens. These types of scenes, a strongly dramatic scene from me, are usually the start of a campaign. Something that is so defining that it has a long-lasting impact on the direction of the rest of the campaign. But after that, events like that occur are almost entirely player/character driven.


So I consider my job to simply frame the scene - not the drama, just the scene. And I'm not their to introduce complications, but to adjudicate the results of actions. The main reason I look at it this way is because I don't consider it my story to write. Because I have an entire world full of people and monsters to write about. Which is fun for me, but probably boring for everybody else. So the game is their opportunity to write the story, and bring that word alive.​
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
How can the gameworld react to the players or the GM? It can be authored by them. But (being a fictional work, that is, some sort of abstract object) it can't react to them.

I believe that [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] agrees with me on this point.

Aha! But this is the heart of a role-playing game.

Just like a character can react to the fictional world around them, by the player taking the role of the character, the world can react to the characters by the DM taking on the role that's needed within the world.

Yes, the DM can author the world. But it could also be authored by somebody else. And yes, sometimes the DM has to author things on the fly. The DM then takes the role of whatever is needed within that world. The key to authoring something on the fly to me is to be consistent with the pre-authored part of the world.
 

pemerton

Legend
Ovinomancer said:
I think the primary distinction between DM and player driven is the reactionary status of the gameworld -- if the world only every reacts to the players, it's player driven. If it exists outside of the players, and acts without player input, then it's DM driven.
as a fictional thing, of course the game world does not react to anyone, but rather what is being discussed is the GM's judgment in regards to the game world.

So looking at his post again, would you agree or disagree with his assessment? It seems pretty relevant to the overall topic to me.
I don't think that anyone should need to clarify that the "game world reacting to the players" actually means "the game world, as determined by the GM, reacting to the players". Pointing out that the game world, as a fictional construct, does not actually react to anyone.....what point does that serve?

I have to agree that pointing out such a distinction is pedantic, and distracts from the discussion rather than adds to it. Now, I could be wrong and perhaps there was a compelling reason for the distinction, but none was offered....and the original point being made was never directly addressed.
I've responded to both these things in multiple posts, begining way upthread when I noted the same apparent category error in a post made by [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION].

I will do so again.

Taken at face value the claim that "the gameworld only reacts to the players" makes no sense to me. Adding in the adverb "as determined by the GM" doesn't help, because it's still the case that the gameworld doesn't react to anything. Apparently it's clear to you what is meant, but unfortunately that doesn't help me! (I know that you believe that noone "should need to clarify" these things. All I can do is apologise for my difficulty in making sense of the claim. The metaphor is not working for me.)

In a post following yours [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] refers to "the viewpoint being used to create the fiction". "Viewpoint" here is itself a metaphor - my best reading of it is as a reference to purposes or considerations that guide the authoring of the fiction. If I am misunderstanding what was meant, Ovinomancer no doubt will let me know once again!

So anyway, with that interpretation in mind, here is the nearest true thing that I can see in the general neighbourhood:

Player-driven: The GM authors the gameworld (i) having regard to consistency with the fiction already established in the course of play, (ii) having regard to the concerns/interests of the players as manifested through their creation and their play of their PCs (this is especially relevant when framing the PCs (and thereby the players) into challenging situations, when narrating consequences of failed checks, and the like), and (iii) bound by the outcomes of action resolution. It is worth noting that (iii) cuts both ways: if the players succeed, the GM is bound by that; if the players fail, the GM is bound by that - no retries is a fairly hard rule, whilr no softballing I would say is generally a softer but still important rule.

(NB [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] may disgree with my ranking of the importance of these rules - if so, I think that would reflect some of the differences in our preferences that have come out in this thread eg "scene-framing" vs "MCing".)

GM-driven: The GM authors the gameworld having regard to consistency with the established fiction, where this includes not only fiction already established in the course of play but also fiction authored secretly by the GM. This requirement of consistency can extend to rendering player action declarations for their PCs failures simply on the basis of fictional positioning that is unknown to the players because part of this GM's secret backstory. And a fortiori there is certainly no obligation on the GM, in authoring the gameworld, to have regard to the concerns/interests of the players.​

I haven't gone back through the thread to see the first time I stated something along those lines, but I believe that it's implicit in most of my posts, and especially the discussion with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] earlier in the thread.

Is this what you and [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] mean? As I've said, it's the nearest true thing in the neighbourhood that I can think of. But because it is basically a restatement of stuff that was already established hundreds of posts ago, I feel that it probably is not what you are saying.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I'm pretty much certain that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is aware of the trade-offs involved in choosing his playstyle over your more traditional playstyle and is comfortable with his choices.
Are you sure because when asked about the drawbacks of his "player-driven" playstyle he couldn't list any?
Trade-off is not a synonym for drawback. A trade-off of living in Austaralia is that I don't live in Miami. Which is not, for me, a drawback, as I have no desire to live in Miami, never have done, and don't expect ever to do so.

In other words - a trade-off is not a drawback if the thing you are missing out on is not something that you wanted.

If everyone is aware of the tradeoffs of their styles and are comfortable with their choices what are we discussing them for?
Well, I can't answer that for you or for [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION]. But I can tell you why I started the thread: to discuss with other posters what connection, if any, they see between GM judgement calls and railroading.

Did you enter the thread to discuss this, or did you enter the thread so that you could enlighten me about trade-offs you thought I was ignorant of?
 


Ilbranteloth

Explorer
@Ilbranteloth

My personal recommendation for anyone wanting to give indie gaming a shot would be to give Blades in the Dark a shot on some night you would otherwise get together to play a board game. It relies on a group dynamic, has a dynamic if broadly defined setting to fall back on, has a structure that focuses play, mechanics that you can opt into, and a reward structure that will build in conflicts over methods rather than over conflicts. I would start with just the general score and downtime structure and action rolls. You can build in things like progress clocks, devil's bargains, asking questions as suits the group, and things like emotional and psychological harm over time. The vice, heat, and stress mechanics will do a lot of heavy lifting for you. Right now I am playing Blades with a group of mostly mainstream gamers and they are loving it. It's taken them a bit more time to glom onto the principles, but things have never gotten silly or awkward.

I'll take a look at it. While it's highly unlikely I'll make a change to another system, I do like to learn more. I barely have the time for D&D as it is.

Not because I wouldn't want to try things, just a matter of not enough time. Aside from having a family (including a disabled child), a job and a business, my other hobby/second business is a full-time endeavor as well: http://newbritainstation.com.

Having said that, I can probably make the time to read through the system, and maybe see if I can pull together a game or two at the local store.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
GM-driven: The GM authors the gameworld having regard to consistency with the established fiction, where this includes not only fiction already established in the course of play but also fiction authored secretly by the GM. This requirement of consistency can extend to rendering player action declarations for their PCs failures simply on the basis of fictional positioning that is unknown to the players because part of this GM's secret backstory. And a fortiori there is certainly no obligation on the GM, in authoring the gameworld, to have regard to the concerns/interests of the players.[/indent]

Right. The social contract is what requires DMs to have regard to the concerns/interests of the players. C'mon man, I know you don't like my style of play, but that doesn't mean you should incorrectly try to make it sound like we're complete A-holes.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Trade-off is not a synonym for drawback. A trade-off of living in Austaralia is that I don't live in Miami. Which is not, for me, a drawback, as I have no desire to live in Miami, never have done, and don't expect ever to do so.

That's not a trade-off. A trade-off requires there to be a trade. It's in the word. TRADE-off. If you lived in Miami, giving up hurricanes for a bunch of poisonous critters upon moving to Australia would be a trade-off. You're right that it isn't necessarily a drawback, though.
 

pemerton

Legend
the abilities of the NPC should figure into the skill challenge, as that paints the challenge more vividly and makes it more interesting. The basic SC mechanism - n successes before 3 failures, at DCs determined by the level of the Skill Challenge (not the party) - does not have a lot of space for an opposing NPC. The opposition (or just involvement) of an NPC might determine the level of the challenge and influence the difficulty of checks & number of successes required.

That's fine as far as it goes, but I've taken it further with the above option of giving an NPCs powers that directly affect a Skill Challenge.
the DM could frame a scene wherein the advisor uses powers, skills, etc. against the PCs, but then we're moving into a combat encounter or some other framework.

Or the DM could model such within the framework of the SC system by, say, describing how the advisor augments his slick words with a subtle charm, thus setting that particular skill check by the PC as a hard DC (Arcana) or something similar.
But if that's not what the power actually does the DM isn't in fact leveraging the abilities of the character
In these--any many other, I'm sure--examples, the DM uses the framework of the system to represent NPC actions and adjudicate outcomes of these actions in response to what the PCs do rather than relying solely upon her judgment, which, without such mechanics and to return to the original point of this post, sets up the possibility of railroading.
Yes but in a totally different way than the PC's do. In other words as I said earlier the same mechanics are not being leveraged in the same way for NPC's as they are for PC's in SC's.

An NPC never makes a single roll in SC's... the DC's of a SC aren't typically based on the NPC's abilities or scores, but instead are typically based on level of the characters with wriggle room for the DM to adjust it up or down... complexity is set based on how many successes the DM wants the PC's to have to garner but again is not tied to the NPC in any way and advantages are based on the complexity of the SC and stopping the math from resulting in an auto-failure... but again not on any abilties or qualities of the NPC.
Some thoughts on skill challenges:

(1) The 4e DMG says (on p 73):

Set a level for the challenge and DCs for the checks involved. As a starting point, set the level of the challenge to the level of the party, and use moderate DCs for the skill checks . . .

If you use easy DCs, reduce the level of the challenge by one. If you use hard DCs, increase the level of the challenge by two. You can also adjust the level of the challenge by reducing the number of failures needed to end the challenge. Cut the number of failures needed in half, and increase the level of the challenge by two. . . .​

I think this is fairly confusing (and perhaps confused), but my best guess is that when it talks about "reducing" or "increasing" the level of the challenge, it is referring to the level for XP and milestone purposes, not for DC-setting purposes (which are being set prior to adjusting the level of the challenge). Personally I would regard this text as superseded by the Essentials guidelines on number of medium checks, hard checks and advantages.

I don't know if I have ever run any skill-challenges setting DCs according to a level other than the PCs' level, but I do know that if I have done that it's not for a long time.

(2) The 4e DMG also says (on p 74):

For speed and simplicity, skill challenges use only flat DCs to oppose the PCs’ skill checks. Opposing them with skill check results builds too much randomness into the system.

If you want to include opponents’ checks in your skill challenges, use their passive checks (10 + base skill check bonus). Insight and Perception are the skills most often used in this way.​

I don't recall ever having done this myself.

(3) I completely agree with [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] about how the NPCs - as crucial elements of the fiction - factor into a skill challenge. The GM uses them - their personalities, their actions, their willingness or their reticence - as part of the framing of the situation which (because it is not as the PCs want it to be) leads the players to declare checks. I think that to argue that this is not leveraging the abilities of the NPC is to miss the point - that claim assumes that a NPC's combat stat block is some sort of "true expression" of the PC, whereas clearly, given the presence of the skill challenge mechanics, it is not! (It's similar to asserting that the game is incoherent because the same NPC might be statted up as a level X solo, a level X+4/5 elite, a level X+9 standard, or a level X+17 minion.)

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with doing the sort of thing that Tony Vargas describes. But personally I've never felt the need for it.
 

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