D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

Cap'n Kobold · Jan 26, 2018

Fauchard1520 said:
Oh sure. I just meant that there isn't official support for it. Fans had to invent a price list to support the magic shop style of play. Back in development, one of the big selling points of 5e was that it would be extremely modular, with optional subsystems (like feats) to increase or decrease complexity. My argument is that, by not including a price list, the "magic shop module" becomes a lot harder to implement. That seems at odds with the design philosophy.

Seems right in line to me. If they had included a price list in core, then it would be viewed as a core part of the game, and not an add-on module.

DMsGuild is where people can get the add-on modules to suit them. The Sane Magic Item list seems pretty popular, but I've seen people on here state that they don't like it.
- Which brings us to the issue: If WotC did release a price list for magic items, then there would be no guarantee that everyone would like it. There would still be people complaining that they haven't produced a 'real' (or 'sane' or 'competent') list that balances with how that person feels.
Actually, WotC would probably have to produce several lists, to fit in with varied setting styles and levels of magic item availability.

Overall, with such a very optional feature requiring so much variation between preferences, its not surprising that they've left that to the DMsGuild for the moment. They may well be keeping an eye on products like the sane magic Items, and if they are popular enough, and get enough good reviews, then they will use them as a basis for their own official one if they produce it.

JonnyP71 · Jan 26, 2018

I don't want Magic Shops to become the default again.

They remove the 'wow' factor from magic items.

I don't mind maybe an occasional herbalist, brewing dodgy concoctions, but that's as far as it goes.

I refuse to ever put any shop selling permanent magic items in any game I run - of any system. And would prefer not to play in any game that includes them.

Fanaelialae · Jan 26, 2018

Lanefan said:
As did 1e, but neither list would be of much use without a lot of adjustment in the much-lower-treasure environment that is 5e.

It's important to keep in mind that, while 1e did have prices for magic items, IIRC the DMG explicitly stated that these were not intended for the buying of magic items. Rather, in that edition, you received XP largely based on the gold value you were able to recover from the dungeon (or it might have been gold value you spent in between adventures). Either way, it was intended for the awarding of experience points and not for running magic shops (though I don't doubt that some DMs used it to that end regardless).

As an aside, I don't think magic items price lists have ever been implemented all that well in D&D, even in 3e where they were at the core of the rules. There were multiple items in the 3e DMG that were either priced so low that they were a steal, or so high that you'd be crazy to touch the item with a 10' pole. That's not even considering campaign specific pricing, such as what a Decanter of Endless Water might fetch in Dark Sun.

delericho · Jan 26, 2018

Fanaelialae said:
As an aside, I don't think magic items price lists have ever been implemented all that well in D&D, even in 3e where they were at the core of the rules.

True. The more I've dug into 3e over the years, the more I've concluded that a lot of what looks like a carefully worked-out mathematical system has nothing like the rigour it seems. To the extent that I suspect a whole lot of people were "playing it wrong" - including some of the designers later in the edition.

There were multiple items in the 3e DMG that were either priced so low that they were a steal, or so high that you'd be crazy to touch the item with a 10' pole.

Yep. Indeed, it was very interesting seeing a complete shift in playstyles midway through my first 3e campaign - we started playing it pretty much as we had done 2nd Ed, and were later joined by a new player who had analysed the math in a lot more detail. The consequence of that (and also the use of the Wealth by Level table when creating his character) was that he got a lot more power out of his 8th level PC than the other players enjoyed. Of course, those other players promptly copied his approach.

With hindsight, I'm inclined to think the first approach was probably better, and in that regard 5e suits me pretty well.

(That said, while 5e suits me, I'll also acknowledge that it doesn't support others, and I'll also note that it's less than ideal for some published settings (notably Eberron). For that reason, I'm inclined to support the requests for a more detailed, but strictly optional magic item economy system to be introduced in some supplement down the line - probably if and when they do something with Eberron.)

NaturalZero · Jan 26, 2018

This thread has me fondly remembering the Arms and Equipment Guide from 3.0. I'd love a huge book full of guidelines for mounts, alchemy, buildings, vehicles, servants, and sundry goods, as well as ideas for managing all of your gold. I'm sure WoTC could sell one or two copies.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 26, 2018

CapnZapp said:
Obviously we deserve the full official first party WotC support, after all, they promised they would support previous editions.

"Obviously"

"deserve"

"full"

"promised"

Oh, my. If this wasn't meant tongue-in-cheek....oh, my.

So many people seem to completely misunderstand...or willfully/hopefully/delusionally misinterpret...what WotC meant by a modular system, and their desire to appeal to fans of all editions.

It most certainly did NOT mean a promise that every feature of every previous edition that people yelled about would get included.

Warmaster Horus · Jan 26, 2018

ccs said:
I'm sorry, I did forget one.
E) You're an AL DM & you CAN'T fix things.

True dat. That's the nature of the game when you're appealing to a broad audience. We'll see what the XGtE changes bring.

Lanefan · Jan 26, 2018

JonnyP71 said:
I don't mind maybe an occasional herbalist, brewing dodgy concoctions, but that's as far as it goes.

I refuse to ever put any shop selling permanent magic items in any game I run - of any system. And would prefer not to play in any game that includes them.

If not shops as such, what are your feelings about the grey market that would inevitably arise once adventurers started trading/selling/buying magic items among themselves, and-or to/from wealthy non-adventurers e.g. the local MU's guild, or the nobility?

Fanaelialae said:
It's important to keep in mind that, while 1e did have prices for magic items, IIRC the DMG explicitly stated that these were not intended for the buying of magic items. Rather, in that edition, you received XP largely based on the gold value you were able to recover from the dungeon (or it might have been gold value you spent in between adventures). Either way, it was intended for the awarding of experience points and not for running magic shops (though I don't doubt that some DMs used it to that end regardless).

For 1e magic items, in general you get 10% of the listed value as xp. For non-magic items and coin you get their full value as xp; and in both cases this is based on what you bring back to town.

However, what almost inevitably happened - given that a) most DMs were running canned modules at least some of the time, and b) the magic items presented in said modules may or may not have been of any use to the PCs in a particular party (e.g. nobody in the party is proficient with two-handed sword yet the adventure gives out three magic 2-handers) - is that PCs started looking for ways to dispose of unneeded magic items and somehow convert their value into something they could use, be it other magic or straight cash...and suddenly that price list in the DMG started looking pretty damn useful!

Lan-"yes, individual weapon proficiency was a thing in 1e; and not a bad thing at that"-efan

CapnZapp · Jan 26, 2018

Cap'n Kobold said:
Seems right in line to me. If they had included a price list in core, then it would be viewed as a core part of the game, and not an add-on module.

DMsGuild is where people can get the add-on modules to suit them. The Sane Magic Item list seems pretty popular, but I've seen people on here state that they don't like it.
- Which brings us to the issue: If WotC did release a price list for magic items, then there would be no guarantee that everyone would like it. There would still be people complaining that they haven't produced a 'real' (or 'sane' or 'competent') list that balances with how that person feels.
Actually, WotC would probably have to produce several lists, to fit in with varied setting styles and levels of magic item availability.

Overall, with such a very optional feature requiring so much variation between preferences, its not surprising that they've left that to the DMsGuild for the moment. They may well be keeping an eye on products like the sane magic Items, and if they are popular enough, and get enough good reviews, then they will use them as a basis for their own official one if they produce it.

No now you are relativizing.

And strawmanning.

Nobody has suggested or asked for "included a price list in core".

And there is a middle ground between core and DMs Guild. It's called "official supplements".

And finally you're trying to make the problem bigger than it needs to be: no, WotC doesn't need to issue multiple price lists. Or rather:

They could begin by issuing ONE utility-based price list.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

CapnZapp · Jan 26, 2018

JonnyP71 said:
I don't want Magic Shops to become the default again.

They remove the 'wow' factor from magic items.

I don't mind maybe an occasional herbalist, brewing dodgy concoctions, but that's as far as it goes.

I refuse to ever put any shop selling permanent magic items in any game I run - of any system. And would prefer not to play in any game that includes them.

Nobody is asking for them to be the default again.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

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