D&D 5E "Monster density" and wilderness settlements in D&D campaign worlds

Li Shenron · Sep 25, 2014

Mercurius said:
This topic is applicable to all forms of D&D, although I'm playing 5E so might as well put it here.

I'm in the early stages of campaign creation, partially re-tooling an old setting I was using for 4E, partially creating something new. I'm trying to disavow my usual approach of "top down" design--starting big and then working smaller--and instead taking a "bottom up" approach, focusing on a village and its environs, with only broad strokes of the larger continent and world. Anyhow, as I was envisioning the starting area, a question arose in my mind about the ratio or density of monsters within a wilderness to small pockets of civilization, and how realistic (or not) it would be to have a village just out there in the middle of the monster-infested wilderness. I mean, wouldn't it be over-run? And if not, why not? What could be protecting it? And so on. I mean, it makes sense to have any size settlement in Cormyr, but what about in the North? What about the Dalelands - how do those survive?

So the inquiry is this: in terms of verisimilitude and some semblance of "fantasy realism," what is the proper ratio of "monster density" and population centers in a wilderness area? What sort of protection would a settlement need? It just seems to me that D&D campaign worlds, especially of the "points of light" variety, tend to eschew any sense of fantasy realism, and instead just offer a setting that is playable for D&D. Nothing wrong with that, but I so much enjoy the artistic aspects of campaign design and like it to "feel right" aesthetically, which for me must include some degree of internal consistency, fantasy realism, etc.

Anyone thought along these lines? Any ideas?

Just to think outside the box, have you considered setting up your fantasy world as "points of darkness" instead?

Aloïsius · Sep 25, 2014

I often use the "point of light" approach. On a litteral interpretation. Monsters are bon from darkness. Darkness has swallowed the world (think about billowing black clouds...). But there are places where, because of magic, the sun shines and monsters don't enter.

Adventurers are the one who go in the dangerous world outside, to search for whatever you want in you campaign.

Grainger · Sep 25, 2014

Mercurius said:
Actually, that might be the closest real-world analogy - the American frontier. It could be an interesting, even subversive twist on D&D, with humans being akin to European settlers, and all "Others" being akin to American Indians, being continually pushed back, their lands taken and settled, and actually becoming more aggressive because of it. In some cases, some "tribes," it is outright racial hatred and genocide - orcs, for instance, would be akin to an Indian tribe that was very hostile and disliked. But then some, like elves, would be more like the Cherokee who integrated (except for some, who are pushed out in something akin to a Trail of Tears, which gives a nice explanation for "high" vs. "wood/wild" elves).

IMO most offical D&D materials I've seen (since the early days) have as much in common with the American West as with Medieval Europe. For a start, you've usually got a frontier, you've got towns in the middle of wild lands, you've got hostile tribes (Orcs etc.), you often have law enforcement which has more in common with western sheriffs or modern police than with medieval law and order, the place-names sound American, you have "general stores", etc. D&D, as expressed by many official products, is the American West with Medieval tech and magic.

Andor · Sep 26, 2014

Okay, if you want villages in the middle of hostile territory, then look at how it was done historically. Think early medieval hamlets and villages. They are built in a desfensible spot to begin with, at the crest of a hill, on a mesa, protected by a cliff on one side, etc. They are walled, and there is a watch tower with a bell or other signalling device. And when trouble starts they will fort up and line the walls with archers. In 5e massed peasant infantry is not to be sneezed at.

For historical examples look at any walled european town, a legions camp, Hadrians wall forts, Hakka villages, or Derinkuyu.

For two good fantasy examples look at the Emeshi village in the start of Princess Mononoke and Iron town later in the same movie.

Also don't think of the inhabitants as beaten down french villain or polish serf, picture them as armed and dangerous men like english yeoman or retired roman legionaires.

Greg Benage · Sep 26, 2014

Some ideas...

"Dragonslayer" (1981). The town fathers cut a deal.

Periodic slaughter. The isolated settlement is, in fact, put to the sword/torch/tooth and claw on a regular basis. Pioneers are desperate enough that they keep coming back.

Diplomacy. If a frontier is dominated by humanoids or other intelligent monsters, you could reach a political agreement with them, and they in turn could offer some protection from other denizens in the area. This probably works best if it's the frontier of a realm more powerful than the humanoid tribes. The tribes might give in to temptation from time to time, and then the king has to send an army to punish them, but the arrangement allows for some kind of tenuous stability. Eventually, as the frontier develops and more settlers pour in, the tribes maybe realize this is a raw deal that won't end well and begin mobilizing for war.

Patron monsters. Powerful good monsters might offer protection.

Cost-benefit. The settlement is heavily fortified and dirt poor. The local hobgoblin chief (or whatever) figures he could take it (maybe he even tried, once), but it would expend a lot of resources and anyway his tribe enjoys relative abundance compared to the peasants living in abject poverty. Beyond a few raids on outlying farms, it's just not worth it. Plus...

Balance of power. The hobgoblin has the orc tribes to worry about. They're a much bigger threat than a few pitiful humans hiding behind their walls.

Zardnaar · Sep 26, 2014

Wandering monsters should not really be used in the vicinity of a village. The borderlands as such or a points of light is more akin to the wild west. A village militia and a wall would keep most baddies away. If a hamlet or whatever is really out in the wilds it will need protection and in a lot of cases that is what established kingdoms offer.

THe Roman empire is a good example, lots of border forts and a military to keep out the barbarians. When the frontier falls you have the dark ages. Other example would be the Byzantines and the theme system and settling friendly "barbarian": tribes as settlers in Anatolia.

Higher level NPCs and adventurers are your insurance policy against things like giants and Dragons. If the hordes/beasts do get through have a look at some of the ancient cities in Syria, Turkey or Carthage for examples of what will happen. D&D is not very good at representing ruins though as any town or city destroyed is usually rapidly resettles or rebuilt even if a new culture now controls it.

Dragons could also be feasting on Orcs and the like out in the hinterlands. When Orc numbers hit a critical point a horde forms and it is the real life equivalent of the huns/mongols. Pechenengs/Timurids turning up on your doorstep.

TerraDave · Sep 26, 2014

Mercurius said:
....
between the two are the "fringe lands" - not unlike the American frontier - in which there are small settlements that sometimes have short life-spans, with only a few surviving to make it to the status of fortified town. Slowly, but inexorably, the frontier is pushed back.

You could call that area a "borderland" and on that borderland, is a keep.

I think we know the main precedents here:

A heavily fortified location with a disproportionate number of adventuring types. A great base for a long term campaign (though you may want to give people some actual names).

The village with the story. In this case, Hommlet was sucked into a growing evil, had to defend itself, and the evil was defeated. But not completely, and everyone knows it. So there are a disproportionate number of adventurers (many hiding that fact), everyone is in the militia, secret caches of weapons and meeting rooms, they are building a castle, and of course the neighboring burg that embraced the evil more openly.

the village with a secret evil, or a front for the real evil. Saltmarsh has a place that you shouldn't go, which of course you can't resist going, and of course is not what it seems. Good for a "points of darkness" (as noted above) type game. (In honor of the MMs "blights", the Sunless Citadel offers an interesting variant on secret evil).

For true point of light on the other hand, you need to change your thinking completely. There is no "frontier", and villages just survive anyway they can, including being lucky to combine food, lower rad levels, and fewer dangerous mutants. But its a constant struggle for survival, as the youth from Far-Go will find out.

Mercurius · Sep 26, 2014

Wow, such great responses - so many ideas to mine, thanks all! [MENTION=22260]TerraDave[/MENTION], yours was evidently worth saying four times! Haha. I was going to respond earlier but fell behind, then EN World was being updated (twice), and now there are just too many.

Anyhow, I'll be looking at this thread as I develop my fringe settlement - some really excellent answers, and I feel my question is adequately answered (although please feel free to carry on!).

Grainger · Sep 26, 2014

An alternative to the problem of "monsters within civilised lands" is to compartmentalise them. Perhaps they are on different planes/parallel worlds, and the PCs can visit those worlds through portals. In that situation, the PCs are the "monsters", "invading" the other worlds. Perhaps if the PCs cause enough disruption, the inhabitants of the others worlds could organise an invasion of the PCs' plane...

Obviously, terrain is another way to limit monster populations. Lizardfolk might prefer to live in a swamp, and seldom stray far from their borders. Perhaps some Humans want to utilise the swamp, perhaps to get ingredients for medicinal treatments, and have run into problems with the Lizardfolk. Perhaps the Lizardfolk are starting to raid the fringe settlements. This solves the issue of "why don't they slaughter the entire population?". It's a similar thing to Viking raiders - they hit the English coast, but in general, anyone sufficiently far from the coast or a navigable river, was safe.

You can always fall back on "monsters coming out of the Underdark", too. The PCs can visit there, but also perhaps the monsters are coming out into more civilised lands. Maybe they don't usually come out, but perhaps changes below (changes in the balance of power) have caused some of the inhabitants to stray above-ground more. This could be in relatively unsettled areas, such as mountain ranges.... it still needs adventurers to deal with it, but peasantfolk aren't under direct threat... unless the adventurers/rulers fail to deal with it.

Just three ideas there which give the PCs plenty to do, but avoid the issue of Owlbears roaming around the Shire, killing Sam and Frodo, and a Dragon eating Bag End (it misheard, and thought someone was talking about a Baguette).