D&D 5E Gamehole Con Live Tweeting Perkins Panel

Sadras

Legend
[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION] & [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION]
I understand the challenge very clearly, but I do not think it is impossible to do.

1st Film: Do an origin story of how these Elves turned black, evil and to the worship of Lolth...expand on the story of the Crown Wars (if following FR's history) or Elfwars (2e The Complete Book of Elves)...etc

2nd Film: Do a story of survival, reflect on the break away Eilistraee worshipping Drow, the conflict that perhaps arose, and introduce "white" surface slave traders, showcasing the greater evil and threat in the underground, the Illithids.

3rd Film: The Rise of Drizzt? A love story, Drizzt & Cattie-brie?

It really doesn't have to be a black/white thing, there is so much more that they can explore.
 

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Imaro

Legend
@Alzrius & @Dausuul
I understand the challenge very clearly, but I do not think it is impossible to do.

1st Film: Do an origin story of how these Elves turned black, evil and to the worship of Lolth...expand on the story of the Crown Wars (if following FR's history) or Elfwars (2e The Complete Book of Elves)...etc

2nd Film: Do a story of survival, reflect on the break away Eilistraee worshipping Drow, the conflict that perhaps arose, and introduce "white" surface slave traders, showcasing the greater evil and threat in the underground, the Illithids.

3rd Film: The Rise of Drizzt? A love story, Drizzt & Cattie-brie?

It really doesn't have to be a black/white thing, there is so much more that they can explore.

As a black male in America, let me assure you... it will be a white/black thing, especially since the only dark skinned elves are evil (still don't understand why D&D didn't take a page from Earthdawn and give all the races a range of comparable skin tones to humans)... but there's this one whose not like the other evil and decadent people of his race, he's "different" from the rest of the dark skinned elves and he's one of the few good ones out there. I can already see the reaction (regardless of how you try to spin it) to this story... adding black face is just dousing the potential fire with a bucket of highly flameable fuel. IMO, of course.
 

Imaro

Legend
As for blackface - why not just cast brown or black actors, and give them latex ears like Liv Tyler and Hugo Weaving had in LotR?

Because at this point you've equated the natural skin tone(s) of real life darker-skinned people with some kind of mythological curse/punishment for being evil...
 


Some portrayals of drow--or "off-brand" drow, like in Warcroft--have gone for more of a deep purple or the like. I think that's probably the only way to really make the drow work in a modern, visual context. Dark-skinned, yes, but of a color that is clearly inhuman.

This works particularly well if you take the approach that some of the other races of elves have non-human tints to them, as 5e seems to have done with moon elves.
 


Kaychsea

Explorer
The devil is in the details, if you see no difference in the context around Drizzt vs. Blade (and thus Drow vs. Vampires) I'm not really sure where to begin in explaining it to you.
It's also basically Shane, The Green Knight and Spiderman. In such a broad-stoke description there is no detail per se.

Although there are strong similarities as well, the major difference being Blade's half-caste nature. Drizzt being almost the only one of his kind, if you ignore the thousands of look-a-likes bouncing around the realms.

And in breaking news, humour is now dead in Northern California.
 

Iosue

Legend
Here is where we differ. While I played 4E and for me it was "real D&D," it did have a rather different quality to it than 3E, and in that sense was more of a departure from traditional/classic D&D (or AD&D) than 3E was from 2E, and I would say overall was, if not quite the "red-headed stepchild" of the D&D family, then certainly the black sheep. This is not meant in a pejorative manner! I, for one, love black sheep (and am a bit of one myself)! :lol:
My experience was rather similar to permerton's, except I had a very different reaction. I played 4e and enjoyed it, but I always felt, "Wow, this is quite a different kind of game from Classic D&D..." Then I saw the rules for 3e, which I'd missed, and it seemed like a mash-up of the 2e rules and 3e rules.

I've always thought that OD&D through 4e was something like a spectrum, distinct differences at certain points, but blurry transitions at others. So if you were playing OD&D, that was a relatively smooth transition to AD&D (or alternatively XD&D). But as people were moving out of "exploration/problem solving" and into "story and setting", 2nd Edition focused on that. If you were an OD&D player who used AD&D books, it was too different. But if you were an AD&D player running Dragonlance-style games, it was a smooth transition. And if you were an AD&D player who used 2nd Ed materials, 3e was a huge change, maybe changed too much. But if you had played a lot with the supplemental material (Complete Handbooks, Skills & Powers, etc), the move to 3e wasn't such a big change. And if you were a 2nd Ed player who used 3e books, 4e was this whole other thing. But if you were a 3e player who really got into the nitty-gritty of character generation and interactions with rules, the move to 4e was not much different than going from descending to ascending AC -- same idea, better presentation.

But I don't think most people who didn't like 4E didn't like it because they thought it was "poorly designed," or if they did I would suggest that they--or many of them--were projecting their feelings onto the game system itself. I think for the people who actively disliked 4E it was more of an affective, gut feeling - partially a response to WotC's early "anti-3E" campaign, partially not gelling with the mechanics, in particular AEDU, partially not liking the aesthetic of 4E and its incorporation of non-traditional elements into the core (e.g. dragonborn, eladrin, etc).
Really, the question of quality of design depends a lot on what you want out of the game. If you want to use the rules as a physics generator, 4e design sucked. If you saw the rules as abstractions on which to hang your roleplay, 4e was awesomely designed. 4e really had to be wrangled to work for classic dungeoncrawls (and produce the same kind of tension and dread), but it did set-piece battles like no one else.

On the front page of this site is a quote from Chris Perkins: "A great deal of my time and effort was spent to inject the fun that had been sucked out of D&D."

To me, that seems to carry an implication that 4e (and 3e?) sucked the fun out of D&D. That's pretty harsh! The difference in widespread public response to this, compared to the grapple video WotC produced at the time of 4e launch, is interesting, but I don't think the harshness of the criticism of the earlier edition has anything to do with it.
FWIW, Chris Perkins replied to that tweet, saying, "Out of context, this sounds bad. :(" Gamehole Con replied, "Sorry, was clear in the room what you were saying, 140 characters is a bit of context killer." Asked for elaboration of context, Perkins said, "One of my goals is to make sure 5e contains lots of humor. Remember the little b&w comics in the 1e books?"

So rather than be a comment on 3e and 4e themselves, he was talking about a pan-edition phenomenon, something that goes back to 2e, if not late 1e.

That said, as someone whose favorite edition has generally been ignored, from the outside it's never looked to me like WotC was trashing other editions. I've always thought people imparted far too much malice into such comments, comments that were often intended to be self-deprecating, or in-group criticism.
 

Mercurius

Legend
On the front page of this site is a quote from Chris Perkins: "A great deal of my time and effort was spent to inject the fun that had been sucked out of D&D."

To me, that seems to carry an implication that 4e (and 3e?) sucked the fun out of D&D. That's pretty harsh! The difference in widespread public response to this, compared to the grapple video WotC produced at the time of 4e launch, is interesting, but I don't think the harshness of the criticism of the earlier edition has anything to do with it.

Ha ha, yeah, it seems they haven't learned the fine art of public speaking. I mean, this is the sort of thing that people say all the time, but it isn't exactly political on his part, and unfortunately people take things that politicians say out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We'll see if that happens with this.
 

Mercurius

Legend
My experience was rather similar to permerton's, except I had a very different reaction. I played 4e and enjoyed it, but I always felt, "Wow, this is quite a different kind of game from Classic D&D..." Then I saw the rules for 3e, which I'd missed, and it seemed like a mash-up of the 2e rules and 3e rules.

I've always thought that OD&D through 4e was something like a spectrum, distinct differences at certain points, but blurry transitions at others. So if you were playing OD&D, that was a relatively smooth transition to AD&D (or alternatively XD&D). But as people were moving out of "exploration/problem solving" and into "story and setting", 2nd Edition focused on that. If you were an OD&D player who used AD&D books, it was too different. But if you were an AD&D player running Dragonlance-style games, it was a smooth transition. And if you were an AD&D player who used 2nd Ed materials, 3e was a huge change, maybe changed too much. But if you had played a lot with the supplemental material (Complete Handbooks, Skills & Powers, etc), the move to 3e wasn't such a big change. And if you were a 2nd Ed player who used 3e books, 4e was this whole other thing. But if you were a 3e player who really got into the nitty-gritty of character generation and interactions with rules, the move to 4e was not much different than going from descending to ascending AC -- same idea, better presentation.

This is an interesting perspective and one I think has a lot of truth to it. Where it breaks down is that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent transition from "4.5" to 5E. Essentials to some degree, but not really. Maybe this is where 5E represents a kind of "return to roots," a full cycle complete and, seemingly, the best of the last cycle incorporated in a new octave.

Really, the question of quality of design depends a lot on what you want out of the game. If you want to use the rules as a physics generator, 4e design sucked. If you saw the rules as abstractions on which to hang your roleplay, 4e was awesomely designed. 4e really had to be wrangled to work for classic dungeoncrawls (and produce the same kind of tension and dread), but it did set-piece battles like no one else.

I hear your point and agree on the last part. I loved 4E combat and I hope that the 5E DMG offers options to incorporate some of that tactical approach in a way that can be used in specific combats. But I also eventually yearned for a return to a more theater-of-mind approach, which 4E didn't really facilitate well.

FWIW, Chris Perkins replied to that tweet, saying, "Out of context, this sounds bad. :(" Gamehole Con replied, "Sorry, was clear in the room what you were saying, 140 characters is a bit of context killer." Asked for elaboration of context, Perkins said, "One of my goals is to make sure 5e contains lots of humor. Remember the little b&w comics in the 1e books?"

So rather than be a comment on 3e and 4e themselves, he was talking about a pan-edition phenomenon, something that goes back to 2e, if not late 1e.

That said, as someone whose favorite edition has generally been ignored, from the outside it's never looked to me like WotC was trashing other editions. I've always thought people imparted far too much malice into such comments, comments that were often intended to be self-deprecating, or in-group criticism.

Agreed! In this sense I think the "Edition War" has been instigated more by hyperactive defensiveness than by overt offensiveness.

And yes, I am saying that people are overly sensitive! ;D
 

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