D&D 5E Geniuses with 5 Int

pemerton

Legend
Huh. A really long response I posted to Max a couple hours ago has vanished.
This happened to me in this thread a day or two ago. It later turned up after I'd had another go at it and so I ended up with an unexpected double post.

Weirder for me is the "What do we miss from 2nd ed" thread, where I have a reply from [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] but I can't get to it because the thread won't let me see beyond post 480. Sorry Saelorn - I'm not ignoring you, I just can't find the post!
 

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happyhermit

Adventurer
Is there a reason you responded to my comment but ignored my question?

Once again, it has nothing to do with the "rules". This is not changing a rule, any more than is having a Sorcerer narrate his spellcasting as throwing playing cards.

Probably not all that much different, that is not how spellcasting "works" in D&D. Would you simply be ignoring the V,S,M components or would you consider "If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell." to be "not a rule" by some definition?

It only changes a rule if you let the narration drive the mechanics. If the Sorcerer suddenly decides that he can throw a few extra cards, or even if the DM says "Sorry, you're facing into a hurricane force wind so you can't throw cards", then the narrative has crossed the line into mechanics.

It has already crossed the line into "mechanics" though, you may deem them "fluff" by some definition but the rules describe how spells are cast in D&D, going outside those rules is going outside those rules (not a bad thing).

Funny that you mention how this reminds you of 'younger players' wanting to be good in every way. It seems like one of the oppositions to this sort of RP is based on the fear that some players will try to cross that narration/mechanics line, once you let them control the narrative. And they might. And maybe that's a good reason to not allow it at your table. But that's very different from saying that it breaks a rule.

I was hesitant to mention this because it might be taken the wrong way, but it didn't feel right to ignore my experience because it might bother someone. I have no problems dealing with players who "might cross the line" my players are awesome.

I do prefer using definitions that are consistent and I prefer following the rules if it makes more "sense" and is less likely to need all sorts of juggling/retcon/things just not happening lest they "spoil the narrative" even if they make sense

ie; Big burly Hobgoblin with "low strength" getting charmed into using his supposed muscle mass, or deciding to use it, or watching someone they care about die because they aren't going to use it, etc.

If there is a big enough reason to go against those definitions, I have no problem with it, and in that case I have no problem admitting they are not BTB. I like lots of things that aren't BTB.

The passages you quote from PHB are not rules because they don't define any mechanics. HOW do they measure natural athleticism, mental acuity, etc. There's no function, no equation, no rule. Some text is simply meant to add color to the mechanics.

Within D&D, you are intended to measure them with the ability score, simple as that. They are an abstraction intended to describe the things that the book says they describe.

"... But are you seriously going to tell me that a player who describes himself as helmetless and without a coat of arms (backstory: too poor for such finery) is breaking the rules?

Nope, I would not say that they were "breaking" the rules, they are simply not playing the subclass BTB, which is great if that's what's desired.

I would ask you to look at it this way (and it would be really awesome of you if you did);

When you read a document and it is prefaced by a definition of terms as are many technical, legal, or other documents, do you normally think "These are the definitions that are intended to be used for these words within this document?" or do you think "They probably intended me to swap out these definitions for ones that in the real world mean the exact opposite thing."
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Huh? The saving throw is an event, involving the roll of a d20 looking to match or equal a target number, which occurs in the real world.

Within the fiction no roll is being made! Something like the following is taking place (Gygax's DMG, p 81):

The player only rolls the d20. The save is for the PC only, not the player.

A character under magical attack is in a stress situation, and his or her own will force reacts instinctively to protect the character by slightly altering the effects of the magical assault. This protection takes a slightly different form for each class of character. Magic-users understand spells, even on an unconscious level, and are able to slightly tamper with one so as to render it ineffective. Fighters withstand them through sheer defiance, while clerics create a small island of faith. Thieves find they are able to avoid a spell's full effects by quickness . . .​

Correct. The character makes or fails the save, not the player. The player only rolls the die to determine if the PC makes or fails it.

In the case of [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION]'s warlock, although the player's die roll is a failure in the fiction we imagine that the character's patron (i) protects her, and (ii) mandates that she maintain the ongoing deceit - which, in this case, means revealing whatever information the GM has given her player access to in virtue of the character having a 5 INT.

The patron has no mechanical power to protect the PC and maintain the ongoing deceit. A failed save forces the PC to tell the truth unless there is a house rule going on to alter that mechanic.

The outcome is thus the same as if the character knew nothing (due to a more typical characterisation of a 5 INT) and handed over all that information under the compulsion of a ZoT.

What you two are arguing is that a mechanical change that doesn't change the outcome is not a house rule. This is false. You don't get to turn a fireball into cold damage just because the creature killed is dead and no rules involving cold or fire are in play. Not without a house rule anyway.

It may be all that matters to you, but it is largely irrelevant to [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] or to me.

Which is fine. House rule the game to your heart's content. Just don't expect us to believe that it's not a house rule. RAW simply does not back you up.

The best [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] has been able to argue is that RAW doesn't specifically prevent his actions, which is arguably untrue. However, for the sake of argument, I'll accept that for this post. Assuming RAW doesn't prevent it, it's still a house rule to enact. Anything not explicitly spelled out by RAW is not RAW.

99.9999999999% of everything in the multiverse is not prevented by RAW. RAW doesn't forbid a fireball from reading the minds of every NPC within 20 miles and giving it to the PC. If Elfcrusher's argument is true, then I can narrate a fireball as doing that and the resulting mechanics are not a house rule because no existing mechanic was changed. All of the fireball's mechanics are intact and work just as the game directs.

The function of stats in an RPG is not, in my view, to frame what the character can do. It is to frame what moves the player is permitted to make, and to resolve those moves once made. In the case of TwoSix's 7 STR sorcerer, the upshot of STR checks will tend to be poor rather than good (because of the stat penalty), and TwoSix has already told us what, in the fiction, will be the explanation for that - namely, the character's withered arm.

I don't see how this is houseruling at all.

Probably because it isn't backed up by the rules. In fact, the rules indicate the exact opposite.

The dexterity rating includes the following physical characteristics: hand-eye coordination, agility, reflex speed, precision, balance, and actual speed of movement in running. It would not be unreasonable to claim that a person with a low dexterity might well be quite agile, but have low reflex speed, poor precision, bad balance, and be slow of foot (but slippery in the grasp).​

All TwoSix is doing is applying this idea to STR - his character is brawny, but with an enfeebled dominant arm.

Agility in 1e/2e had no mechanical effect. Strength does. Even if we were to accept Gygax as being correct, and he was wrong on a lot of things, his example still doesn't apply to Twosix's example. He's not giving an example of agile yet not dexterous. Those are at least two different things. He's giving an example of strong, yet not strong. You can't be both.

And just as, in Gygax's example, having his/her PC be "slippery in the grasp" won't allow a player to avoid the adverse consequences of a low DEX, so in TwoSix's case being brawny won't allow avoiding the adverse consequences of a low STR. In both cases, it is the duty of the player (and to a lesser extent of the whole table) to ensure that the narration is consistent with the mechanical outcomes.

Because agility, unlike strength, has no mechanical effect. You can't be brawny without being strong. You can be agile without being dexterous. Note that Gygax made no similar example with strength on that page. There's a reason for that.
 

BoldItalic

First Post
"Ahah," said the forum server to itself, "What fools these mortals be!" and it laid a trap.

Make an Intelligence(Investigation) roll. The DC is 25. If you succeed, you discover why you can't reach the last pages of this thread and others like it.

If you succeed, make a Wisdom(Insight) roll. Again, the DC is 25. If you succeed you realize what this implies about people's posting behaviour.

There is a clue on the last page.
 


BoldItalic

First Post
I don't think it's directly about blocked/ignored users/posts.

For instance, if a poster has replied to me then I am not blocked by that poster! But there is at least one thread where I have had trouble finding that reply.
Try this experiment. Bookmark this post and make a note of its # number and what page we are on. Then set me to ignore. See what happens. (You can un-ignore me in your profile afterwards).
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
HTML:
Max you are using the word "mechanical" incorrectly. Describing a change in a fictional characters state of mind is not mechanical. Mechanical changes must ultimately affect outcomes, especially of dice rolls. Reducing hit points, increasing stats, altering spell slots, granting Advantage: those are mechanical changes.

Eloelle's knowledge is not mechanical unless it affects a mechanical outcome. So you are *making* it mechanical by insisting that it results in a paradoxical result with ZoT; it's not a mechanical change prior to that.

I have no expectation you will understand or accept that, but it's true so the same bizarre compulsion that keeps me coming back to this thread demands that I offer it.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Hippy I haven't forgotten you but that's going to take more typing and I'm on my phone.
 

pemerton

Legend
Anything not explicitly spelled out by RAW is not RAW.
I think this is a very dubious proposition. For instance, RAW in the Basic PDF does not spell out that a fireball (or any other source of fire damage) can set timber structures alight, but obviously it can.

At many points the rules leave the relationship between mechanical notions (such as fire damage) and the fiction to be extrapolated via the players of the game.

The player only rolls the d20. The save is for the PC only, not the player.

<snip>

The character makes or fails the save, not the player. The player only rolls the die to determine if the PC makes or fails it.
Gygax is often not very careful about player vs character. But in the quote I posted he is not guilty of this carelessness. He does not talk about the character making or failing a save: he talks about the character "slightly tamper[ing] with [a magical attack] so as to render it ineffective", "withstanding . . . through sheer defiance". etc.

You don't get to turn a fireball into cold damage just because the creature killed is dead and no rules involving cold or fire are in play.
That's a weird example, because you seem to be talking about a retcon.

No retconning is taking place in [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION]'s example.

The patron has no mechanical power to protect the PC and maintain the ongoing deceit. A failed save forces the PC to tell the truth unless there is a house rule going on to alter that mechanic.
Again, this seems to involve a category error. The patron exists only in the fiction. The mechanics are features of, and operate in, the real world.

Agility in 1e/2e had no mechanical effect. Strength does. Even if we were to accept Gygax as being correct, and he was wrong on a lot of things, his example still doesn't apply to Twosix's example. He's not giving an example of agile yet not dexterous.

<snip>

He's giving an example of strong, yet not strong.

<snip>

You can't be brawny without being strong. You can be agile without being dexterous.
"Agile" is as much a synonym for "dexterous" as "brawny" is for "strong".

Gygax gives us an example of someone who is agile yet has a low DEX because inadequate in many other important respects. [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] gives us an example of someone who is brawny yet has a low STR because inadequate in one crucial respect - his/her dominant arm is withered.

TwoSix's character would be a problem in Rolemaster or Runequest, which have distinct mechanics for modelling permanent disability to a particular limb. But in D&D (or, say, Classic Traveller) there is no comparable mechanic.

A similar example to TwoSix's would be the trap that causes a reduction in a PC's DEX because it (say) chops off a hand or fingers. This is hardly unheard of!
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I have no expectation you will understand or accept that, but it's true so the same bizarre compulsion that keeps me coming back to this thread demands that I offer it.
Yea, I'm pretty much ready to give up on this thread. We're not supposed to talk about religion on this forum, after all, and this discussion has devolved into arguing about which interpretation of our holy book (the PHB) is the correct one. "You can do whatever you want in your church, but you're still a heretic" isn't a discussion I need to have, and I certainly don't need the imprimatur of the Alexandrian Church of the Process-Sim to know I'm playing a perfectly valid version of D&D.
 

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