D&D 5E Points of Light setting and current cross-over strategy: Round peg in the square hole.

Jester David · Jan 14, 2017

pemerton said:
Huh? The Temple of Elemental Evil - elemental cults par excellence - is discussed in Worlds & Monsters.

Ogremoch and Imix, plus their cultists, are statted in MM3. Yan-C-Bin is statted in one of the magazines - I don't remember which one, but I've used the stats.

In other words, what you say is manifestly mistaken.

And my feeling is that incorporating the other 5e APs - if one felt so inclined - would be quite straightforward.

*shrug* I could be wrong. You'd think I was human or something.

So you can make a case for 1/5th of the APs. Still far less than the "all" of the OP.
Even then, PotA fits the PoL as much as the Realms. Nothing is gained by swapping setting.

Parmandur · Jan 14, 2017

Jester David said:
*shrug* I could be wrong. You'd think I was human or something.

So you can make a case for 1/5th of the APs. Still far less than the "all" of the OP.
Even then, PotA fits the PoL as much as the Realms. Nothing is gained by swapping setting.

Only difference is for business purposes. Clearly, the Realms are the smart business move; so, not surprising that it has become the thing. Stories can be bent in whatever way is needed...

Charles Rampant · Jan 14, 2017

I imagine that if they had wanted to, they could have done reasonably similar story points in the PoL/Nerath setting. After all, Tyranny of Dragons is really specific to Faerun, but if you were starting from scratch in Nerath, you presumably wouldn't frame it that way!

That doesn't get away from the fact that all the current adventures fit well and fine into the Realms, to this inexpert eye, and that claims they fit better elsewhere do not really make a lot of sense. At this stage, it is fairly clear that what some people think the Realms is, and how it is actually used by the company and the fans who are buying the books, are two very different things.

Corpsetaker · Jan 14, 2017

AaronOfBarbaria said:
He actually outright states that the Forgotten Realms exist in a multi-verse in the original Forgotten Realms boxed set.

Specifically, the Introduction to the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms, which says, "The 'Forgotten Realms' derive their name from the fictitious fact upon which play in my campaign is based: that a multiverse exists, of countless parallel co-existing Prime Material Planes (including the the world presented herein, our own modern "Earth," and any other fantasy settings a DM may wish to incorporate in play), all related to the Known Planes of Existence presented in the AD&D system."

I see where you are trying to go but I'm afraid you aren't fully correct.

1: That little part near the end there was what I've dubbed through the years as "homebrew disclaimer". If you have been around D&D products long enough you will know that they like to remind people that it's okay to add things to your home games. Some people feel like they need to stick with the cannon and sometimes they liked to remind us that it is okay to use whatever you want. Unfortunately this is not cannon. It was also a small form of advertising of the other D&D worlds. They were letting people know that using more than one world is okay.

2: Co-existing primes are still prime material planes that exist with in the Forgotten Realms sphere. Oerth (Greyhawk) doesn't exist with in the same sphere is not an alternate prime material plane. Something came up years ago about this when a question was asked to Ed Greenwood about Lolth. They asked if the Lolth on Oerth had any connection with the Lolth in Forgotten Realms. The response to that was no. It was said they are completely separate entities that had nothing to do with each other. Now if these worlds co-existed why wouldn't there be one Lolth who has extended her power across these alternate worlds?

3: I have all FR products from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. None of the official products mention anything about Oerth, Krynn, Darksun, or Mystara. If these worlds co-existed in cannon then we would see some evidence in 30+ years of gaming material. The only thing we have is an older Dragon mag article about Elminster having a get together with Mord and Dalamar and that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood.

4: When the Forgotten Realms was created there was no such things as Oerth or any other published D&D world, D&D wasn't even invented yet.

You are basing your argument off of a homebrew disclaimer that is found in many books where it just reminds you that it's okay to add stuff outside the cannon into your home games. It sounds a little like you might be a bit of a Wiz fan and are trying to justify their crossover strategy by making it seem like the Realms has always been built around these other published D&D worlds when it hasn't.

Corpsetaker · Jan 14, 2017

Charles Rampant said:
I imagine that if they had wanted to, they could have done reasonably similar story points in the PoL/Nerath setting. After all, Tyranny of Dragons is really specific to Faerun, but if you were starting from scratch in Nerath, you presumably wouldn't frame it that way!

That doesn't get away from the fact that all the current adventures fit well and fine into the Realms, to this inexpert eye, and that claims they fit better elsewhere do not really make a lot of sense. At this stage, it is fairly clear that what some people think the Realms is, and how it is actually used by the company and the fans who are buying the books, are two very different things.

I wasn't talking about the AP's. In my initial post I said the upcoming classics they are going to release. If they had gone with the PoL setting then it still would fit because PoL could have allowed access to any world that involved the AP's or based the AP's around PoL.

Caliburn101 · Jan 14, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
Wizards would have been better off using the Points of Light setting as a nexus between the different rules. Since PoL really hasn't much background info, it is the perfect place that could contain portals to other worlds and still give people a world that is fully generic.

They could have PC's go to the different worlds via their AP's or other material. They could also have the remake dungeons pop up in PoL and nobody would bat an eye.

Unfortunately they decided to make the Realms their dumping ground and when you have vast knowledge of the Realms, as well as every printed product, it becomes blatantly obvious when something just doesn't fit. That's why use the round peg and square hole analogy. You can fit the peg into a square hole but it's just not the right choice.

It appears they just use the popularity, and notoriety of the Realms to attract people but turn it into something else that just doesn't fit the history of the world.

They would have been better off just building on the Points of Light setting.

I am not keen on the FR being the world to end all worlds - poaching all the goodies from what I think are better worlds like Greyhawk...

... but as far as your contention is concerned, I always thought the PoL a great core of an idea that wasn't sufficiently developed - certainly not enough to make an in-depth campaign out of...

But then with that in mind I take your point - they could have further developed it for 5th and make it a kind of nexus between the others.

Interesting point.

Parmandur · Jan 14, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
I see where you are trying to go but I'm afraid you aren't fully correct.

1: That little part near the end there was what I've dubbed through the years as "homebrew disclaimer". If you have been around D&D products long enough you will know that they like to remind people that it's okay to add things to your home games. Some people feel like they need to stick with the cannon and sometimes they liked to remind us that it is okay to use whatever you want. Unfortunately this is not cannon. It was also a small form of advertising of the other D&D worlds. They were letting people know that using more than one world is okay.

2: Co-existing primes are still prime material planes that exist with in the Forgotten Realms sphere. Oerth (Greyhawk) doesn't exist with in the same sphere is not an alternate prime material plane. Something came up years ago about this when a question was asked to Ed Greenwood about Lolth. They asked if the Lolth on Oerth had any connection with the Lolth in Forgotten Realms. The response to that was no. It was said they are completely separate entities that had nothing to do with each other. Now if these worlds co-existed why wouldn't there be one Lolth who has extended her power across these alternate worlds?

3: I have all FR products from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. None of the official products mention anything about Oerth, Krynn, Darksun, or Mystara. If these worlds co-existed in cannon then we would see some evidence in 30+ years of gaming material. The only thing we have is an older Dragon mag article about Elminster having a get together with Mord and Dalamar and that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood.

4: When the Forgotten Realms was created there was no such things as Oerth or any other published D&D world, D&D wasn't even invented yet.

You are basing your argument off of a homebrew disclaimer that is found in many books where it just reminds you that it's okay to add stuff outside the cannon into your home games. It sounds a little like you might be a bit of a Wiz fan and are trying to justify their crossover strategy by making it seem like the Realms has always been built around these other published D&D worlds when it hasn't.

Sooo, even though it's in the book and articles by Greenwood, and those in charge of canon say it is canon...you don't like the idea, so I isn't canon?

How did spells named after Oerthling Magic Users end up in Faerun?

AaronOfBarbaria · Jan 14, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
I see where you are trying to go but I'm afraid you aren't fully correct.

Well, I'd rather be "not fully correct" than "making up completely arbitrary distinctions without differences so that the actual text doesn't disagree with what I've decided I want to be true."

Remathilis · Jan 14, 2017

Corpsetaker said:
3: I have all FR products from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. None of the official products mention anything about Oerth, Krynn, Darksun, or Mystara. If these worlds co-existed in cannon then we would see some evidence in 30+ years of gaming material. The only thing we have is an older Dragon mag article about Elminster having a get together with Mord and Dalamar and that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood.

Spoilers from Curse of Strahd

[sblock]...the Mad Mage would restore his wits and ends the madness, allowing him to remember that he is none other than Mordenkainen, an archmage of Oerth and the leader of a powerful group of adventurers called the Circle of Eight.
...
Mordenkainen is familiar with worlds beyond his own. For example, if the characters come from the Forgotten Realms and mention this fact to Mordenkainen, he asks them if they know his old friend Elminster of Shadowdale.[/sblock]

AaronOfBarbaria · Jan 14, 2017

Remathilis said:
Spoilers from Curse of Strahd

To build upon that, Castle Spulzeer firmly attaches the Realms to Ravenloft, and Ravenloft itself is connected to most of the other worlds that exist in official D&D settings in official manner.

So even before 5th edition provided us Mordenkainen being friends with Elminster in an official product, the worlds of Oerth and Toril were clearly connected in an official capacity.

D&D 5E Points of Light setting and current cross-over strategy: Round peg in the square hole.

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