D&D 5E Are powergamers a problem and do you allow them to play in your games?

Blue · Jan 22, 2018

5ekyu said:
I do not invite players who have shown disruptive behavior and unwilling to change it into games. Any of the players can veto any additions of players and i am one of those with vetoes.

I agree with this pretty strongly. Especially the shift in focus from "powergaming" to "disruptive behavior". Any disruptive behavior is, well, disruptive. Powergaming can be but is not inherently disruptive. For example, if everyone at the table has well optimized characters, it's not disruptive. If a character makes a highly optimized support character (or defensive in some earlier editions of D&D) which gives other characters MORE of a chance to shine, likely that's also not disruptive.

jasper · Jan 22, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
I'm going to throw a hot take out there. I really don't mean to offend anyone but at the same time I think this is how I feel about powergamers.

They're not the problem. DM's that can't handle powergamers, need to learn how to handle them as part of their growth as a DM, or they shouldn't be DMs.

If you asked me this same question 20 years ago I'd feel differently, but just like other things, there's "good" powergaming and "bad" powergaming. It's got more to do with the player in question than the practice of doing it.

old great and short lizard in cowboy boots. Please tells how?
I have bumped hit points, damage per round, and # enemies. And had them target the PG. Result. More xp per encounter for pcs.
I have shifted focus so the non PG and shine and the PG then tries to turn every encounter into a combat/what ever his build focuses on encounter.
My solution has been talk with the player. And if they don't power down. Do nothing. Or ban the player.

Sadras · Jan 22, 2018

Corpsetaker said:
I actually class this as disruptive behaviour and I do not tolerate it. I had been in a on going 5th edition game where we had a powergamer who ended up making all encounters a cakewalk and the DM started handing out magic items left right and center to try and balance things but it only ended up getting out of control, like it always has no matter the edition. I decided then and there that I had enough.

To me powergaming is just another form of disruptive behaviour and I will not allow it in my games anymore.

How do you recognise a powergamer, what I'm getting at is at what point does the player cross the line from optimiser to powergamer?
Let us take the 5e campaign you were involved in - what did the character possess before the point of magic item distribution by the DM that was so table-breaking? Did he just have high stats? Were they rolled for? Was it a combination of Feats?
There might be another side to this, whereby the DM perhaps was not experienced enough and therefore provided cakewalk encounters.

It is very difficult to comment without actual data.

I do not have a problem with powergamers. I believed I did in 3.x but this was perhaps more my lack of system mastery which hurt my games more than anything else. That was on me as DM. We had also converted characters from 2e, so the characters did not begin from level 1 and were already level 9+ so my entrance into 3.x started in deep waters. Again this was on me as DM.

I find 5e much easier to run with little or no need to change things for powergamers, instead changes come due to personal worldbuilding preferences.

Kobold Boots · Jan 22, 2018

jasper said:
old great and short lizard in cowboy boots. Please tells how?
I have bumped hit points, damage per round, and # enemies. And had them target the PG. Result. More xp per encounter for pcs.
I have shifted focus so the non PG and shine and the PG then tries to turn every encounter into a combat/what ever his build focuses on encounter.
My solution has been talk with the player. And if they don't power down. Do nothing. Or ban the player.

Send me his build plus what's going on in your campaign in brief via PM and I'll give you some ideas that are directly applicable.

Generally, dealing with any given build and any given power gamer is specific to the campaign he or she is playing in. Just because you have a powergamer doesn't mean that it's a problem.

Step 0 - Be sure you have a real problem. Talking isn't always the best idea. Having stats is. (how he's rolling in combat, average damage per turn, is it area or single target etc What are his combos.)
First, you have to be willing to scale the encounters to the power gamer's build and increase the risk of death for everyone else at the table -
Second, you have to be willing to expand the campaign into the political and social role-playing areas that may not play to the strengths of the power gamer.
Third, you have to be willing to explore the concept of consequences. A power gamer inevitably causes problems in the game world. This ties back to the second point.
Fourth, you have to be willing to balance things out. Ex. Giving a PG more magic and more toys until you figure out how to address the problem is not a good idea.

Dealing with a power gamer is NOT a pure combat fix. However, it can be helped by not forgetting about other areas of the game and having a good grasp of probability and stats. Last time I ran in a Pathfinder group as a player I essentially gave the GM a chart with all of the parties average damage per turn, average armor and general probabilities to hit. Turned out we were optimized to be three levels over standard as a party. Next game we had a really hard time winning, which was what everyone wanted.

So I'd say the most important thing here is this: Make sure your group is ok with the challenge level of the game after you fix it. While you may be correcting things in favor of a better game, it's not a better game unless everyone keeps showing up.

KB

iserith · Jan 22, 2018

As was mentioned, this issue is practically non-existent in D&D 5e due to the game's math, but in previous editions in particular, something always bothered me about players complaining about other players having more effective characters. We're on the same team. If another player is more effective in some ways than me and he or she helps contribute greatly to our success as a team, why would I be upset at him or her? I'm happy to have such an effective player on our team so we can conquer more dungeons and slay more dragons! And maybe I can learn from him or her and become better in areas where I am weak. If there are spotlight sharing issues, the DM can correct for that.

The resentment inherent in complaints about "powergaming" or "optimizing" seems ultimately self-defeating.

lowkey13 · Jan 22, 2018

*Deleted by user*

Warmaster Horus · Jan 22, 2018

I'm not too worried about power gamers in my home campaigns. Nothing beats my power as a DM. If a single character is so uber as to potentially 'break' the game, their power has not gone unnoticed and they will attract challengers who will want to suborn, suppress or eliminate them. It just means that I as a DM have to balance my game in a way that provides a good experience and challenge to the players and that may take a little work.

jasper · Jan 22, 2018

Kobold Boots
"Step 0 - Be sure you have a real problem. Talking isn't always the best idea. Having stats is. (how he's rolling in combat, average damage per turn, is it area or single target etc What are his combos."
Talking is ALWAYS the best first idea. Hey BOB you are a PG. Everyone else isn't. Tone it down please.

" First, you have to be willing to scale the encounters to the power gamer's build and increase the risk of death for everyone else at the table - "
No. This feeds the PG. Bob hey I killed 3/4 of the monsters, what have y'all been doing. Players DIEING! I found it never good to feed a PG. Let them own combat and play the monsters smart! If I do have a encounter which challenge the PG, I nerf the xp due his power level.
" Second, you have to be willing to expand the campaign into the political and social role-playing areas that may not play to the strengths of the power gamer."
Good advice but most PGs I met get bored and open a can of .....
" Third, you have to be willing to explore the concept of consequences. A power gamer inevitably causes problems in the game world. "
Gee the PG is now hunted in 9 systems um kingdoms. PG wears a mark of honor.
" Fourth, you have to be willing to balance things out. Ex. Giving a PG more magic and more toys until you figure out how to address the problem is not a good idea."
I generally give PG less since they don't need it.
...
My solution is talk first. And then ban the PG from the table. Some PGs will then ban you from their life. Remember NO GAMING IS BETTER THAN BAD GAMING.

This is going with the thought the power gamer is being a serious problem. If y'all power gaming then no problem.

Flexor the Mighty! · Jan 22, 2018

It doesn't take powergamers to make 5e a cakewalk but they will blow this system wide open. Which is why I finished my 5e campaign and dropped the system. Then again if I run a fantasy game again it will be a meld of skirmish wargaming with some RPG elements. Despite me slamming it as not D&D I may end up in 4e for that reason since it looks like it would fit my desires better.

Kobold Boots · Jan 22, 2018

[MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION]

Replying to you this way as your quote tags are messed up so I'd rather be clear than sort that out.

1. Talking is never the best first idea with any problem or most situations. Figuring out the problem is. Reason: Talk without data is opinion and generally a waste of time.
2. If you don't like the person you're gaming with, that's the problem. The power gaming is secondary.
3. If you do like the person you're gaming with and he or she is a power gamer, then the solution is pretty easy. Do the stats, scale the encounters, you're done.
4. Best advice to DMs who think they're scaling things without doing the stats is, "Don't trust your gut" it got you in trouble in the first place and is why you're having the problem.

Nuff said here because I offered help and you replied back with something silly, so I'm done with you.

Be well
KB