D&D 5E Monk Tortle

jaelis · Jul 11, 2019

jgsugden said:
No armor is a feature, not a limitation, of the monk. They have offsetting abilities.

Regardless, you're discouraging the Tortle as a reasonable choice for race for any player that is concerned, at all, with efficiency with the RAW. When a primary benefit of the race overlaps with a primary benefit of your class, you're unlikely to take it. If you'd like people to feel like it is a reasonable choice, they need somthing to replace the 'overlapping' benefit.

IMO, tortle is totally a powergaming choice for monks. It solves the hard problems of the class, that it is very MAD and lacks armor. Yes they have offseting abilities, but tortles still have those abilities, plus a better AC.

Arguably, monk is the "best" class for a tortle to play. If they play a fighter, then they really are wasting their shell ability, since they could just wear armor instead. If they play a wizard, they are wasting their stat bonus.

So I don't think tortle monks need any compensation for anything... they are already ahead of the game.

jgsugden · Jul 11, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
As a counterpoint, I would submit that there are very few monks, let alone most classes that don’t have chain mail and shield, that start at level 1 with a 17+ armor class.

Most monks start off at 16 (Wis 16/Dex 16) with point buy, a few with rolled stats will start higher, and a good number will start around 15. By level 8, almost all will be at 17 or above.

It is lovely at level 1, but considering how fast you move through the low levels, it is not a significant benefit.

Regardless: A lot of shield utilizing PCs will hit 18 at level 1. Heavy armor PCs will hit 17 without a shield before level 4, generally, due to Splint Armor. Melee PCs with a minor focus on AC tend to hit AC 20 at higher levels. As such, this primary benefit of the Tortle tends to be outclassed by mid-levels.

Nobody is forcing you to play outside RAW (it certainly is not necessary), but treating the overlap of the Monk and Tortle AC abilities as a non-issue is ignoring how it is perceived by most people that look at them. It is a factor that will discourage the combination.

They start off high and can only get higher if they choose to invest in DEX and WIS at ASI time. Otherwise, Tortle Monks gain the flexibility to choose more feats than their AC maximizing non-Tortle monk brothers and sisters.

As there are multiple abilities of the monk that are reliant on wisdom and dexterity, I'd consider it rare that a monk would take a lot of feats, even if AC was not an issue.

Swarmkeeper · Jul 11, 2019

I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve laid out [MENTION=2629]jgsugden[/MENTION]. But I would say that having a higher than normal AC at levels 1-3 increases survivability of the character. Also, while your typical optimizer might avoid the combo, someone who chooses a Tortle Monk is probably looking for a fun concept and less concerned with maximizing every single mechanical aspect. In any case, it is far from a weak build. I think your “most people that look at them” statement is a bit overstated.

jaelis · Jul 11, 2019

jgsugden said:
As there are multiple abilities of the monk that are reliant on wisdom and dexterity, I'd consider it rare that a monk would take a lot of feats, even if AC was not an issue.

Which abilities depend on dexterity?

jgsugden · Jul 11, 2019

jaelis said:
IMO, tortle is totally a powergaming choice for monks. It solves the hard problems of the class, that it is very MAD and lacks armor. Yes they have offseting abilities, but tortles still have those abilities, plus a better AC.

Arguably, monk is the "best" class for a tortle to play...

I expect your opinion would be in the minority.[EDIT: Apparently I am wrong. I tried finding some stats and monk is common for Tortles on D&D Beyond, although that may be inflated by people making their TMNT dream characters for giggles.] If focused on utility for a character expected to be played for a prolonged time, I would rather play a cleric, barbarian, fighter, druid, or paladin as a Tortle. Further, if you built a Tortle cleric and a Wild elf cleric and compared them over time, Ithink you'd find that there is a gross advantage for the elf over time.

DM Dave1 said:
I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve laid out [MENTION=2629]jgsugden[/MENTION]. But I would say that having a higher than normal AC at levels 1-3 increases survivability of the character.

You're not at these levels long, and replacement of a PC is common at these levels, but sure...

Also, while your typical optimizer might avoid the combo, someone who chooses a Tortle Monk is probably looking for a fun concept and less concerned with maximizing every single mechanical aspect...

... putting aside that someone with a consideration for efficiency is not necessarily an optimizer (there is a middle ground, and most people fall within it), you're highlighting my point. By offering a form of offset, you encourage a wider range of people to consider the option... or, more precisely, fewer people are discouraged from playing it.

ad_hoc · Jul 11, 2019

jaelis said:
IMO, tortle is totally a powergaming choice for monks. It solves the hard problems of the class, that it is very MAD and lacks armor. Yes they have offseting abilities, but tortles still have those abilities, plus a better AC.

Arguably, monk is the "best" class for a tortle to play. If they play a fighter, then they really are wasting their shell ability, since they could just wear armor instead. If they play a wizard, they are wasting their stat bonus.

So I don't think tortle monks need any compensation for anything... they are already ahead of the game.

Land Druid is very good for a Tortle (and themed!)

jgsugden · Jul 11, 2019

jaelis said:
Which abilities depend on dexterity?

You do not have a PHB? Putting aside AC and attack elements...

Deflect Missiles (damage you an reduce, ranged attack roles if you spend the Ki)
Evasion is highly impacted.
Certain Tradition Abilities.

Also, the traditional things that are important to a melee combatant - high initiative to get into position, for example.

pogre · Jul 12, 2019

I don't have a rules opinion, but I certainly would love to paint a tortle monk miniature! Sorry for the aside.

jaelis · Jul 12, 2019

Welp, perhaps you are right, interesting to think about

Swarmkeeper · Jul 12, 2019

jgsugden said:
By offering a form of offset, you encourage a wider range of people to consider the option... or, more precisely, fewer people are discouraged from playing it.

Should the same offset be offered to players that want to play a Gith Arcane Trickster (Mage Hand overlap)? A Firbolg Gloom Stalker (Disguise Self overlap)? How about a Lizardfolk Monk or Barbarian (unarmored AC overlap)? How about a Half-Orc Rogue or Wizard (these classes don't need +2 STR!) We could go on and on and on... amirite?

I guess the point is that there are choices to be made a chargen that might have some drawbacks. Some people might want to follow the online color-coded "best choices" guides and have fun with it. It's certainly a limitation to adhere to too much efficiency at the expense of what might be a fun character combo, IMO. The "middle ground" who likes efficiency strikes me as a crowd that won't get hung up on one overlap or minor inefficiency if they can otherwise play a very sound and fun PC. YMMV.