D&D 4E New Year, New 4e

Raith5 · Dec 31, 2012

I agree with the other elements suggested in this thread - themes fully developed, a little less (20% or so) hp for monsters, trim the feat and power lists for dross and in general have broader abilities and utilities.

I also like the idea that PCs can have some flexibility with respect to how they divide their abilities by AEDU so that PC can set up some distribution of abilities that is appropriate to their character concept and to timing/scene framing of the campaign. So you can have some balance between players that want more dailies at the cost of encounter powers or vice versa.

I dont think these are massive changes - the basic chassis of 4th ed is really solid and elegant - it just needs a touch more flexibility in places.

Balesir said:
I would probably use "Residuum" or the equivalent to separate Magic Items from money, per se. Rituals and Consumables would still use money, but Residuum would become an "indestructible" commodity that was essential for making Magic Items. I.e. every item requires its full value in Residuum, and the "Disenchant" ritual returns the item's full value in Residuum. Recipies for items and/or the ritual itself may cost extra in money.

Agree but I would probably avoid the term Residuum. I really like the idea of ritual components being a key treasure item so that getting dragon teeth, wraith essence and demon ichor is a key part of doing rituals and making magic items. Sure gold or gems could be used I suppose, but the main source should be found in game or from alchemist shops.

S'mon · Dec 31, 2012

Dannyalcatraz said:
In addition, having healing magic not work when the target has no HSes left is extremely disruptive of immersion, making the magic seem to be not magical at all.

If you're at negative with no surges, healing magic restores you to 1 hp, BTW.

S'mon · Dec 31, 2012

Re condition tracking - we had a brilliant battle recently with 7 level 9 PCs vs a level 12 Solo green dragon. The dragon was imposing a lot of ongoing-10 poison damage which worked brilliantly, as did the conditions PCs were imposing on it, because with a single foe there was not too much to track. The problem comes with every Tom Dick & Harry standard monster imposing '-2 to hit' type trivial conditions. It's worst when I have 4+ different monster types to run and they all have exotic status effects.
Most monsters should be simple, the exotics should be called out as such.

Balesir · Dec 31, 2012

Dannyalcatraz said:
4) HPs & HSes are just messed up. I'm playing a Dwarven Starlock, and I have more HP and better HSes than any other PC in the party except the Dwarven Fighter. I grok Dwarves being durable, but that's kind of silly. In addition, having healing magic not work when the target has no HSes left is extremely disruptive of immersion, making the magic seem to be not magical at all. Perhaps such magic should grant uniform healing based on the particular magic used, or on some attribute of the Healer, but as-is, its terrible.

Hmm, diff'rent strokes, but I really like the fact that only "real magic" works when you are out of surges; surgeless healing (like Cure Light Wounds) and magical healing that uses the caster's surges rather than the target's (some Paladin abilities) still work on the "terminally tuckered out"

And, from several posts, I remembered that I forgot multiclassing...

FWIW I would have the first MC feat give: (i) qualification for PPs and so on, (ii) ability to swap powers, but no more than half of any category of power can be of the second class, and (iii) all the second classes skills as class skills. Further feats would then give (non-nerfed) class abilities from the second class. I have seen MC feats used too many times as no more han a cheap way to get skill training with a bonus class ability, with investment in powers just too costly.

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 31, 2012

S'mon said:
If you're at negative with no surges, healing magic restores you to 1 hp, BTW.

Are you sure? Potions of healing, for instance, contain no such language.

"Minor Action. Drink the potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 10 hit points." HotFK* p 352.

That's it. Is there language overriding that in the DMG? If so, where, 'cause if there is, our DM has some 'splainin' to do.

(Not only that, that's fewer HP than my Warlock gets from a normal HS, which just reinforces that feeling that magical healing is "meh.")

Hmm, diff'rent strokes, but I really like the fact that only "real magic" works when you are out of surges; surgeless healing (like Cure Light Wounds) and magical healing that uses the caster's surges rather than the target's (some Paladin abilities) still work on the "terminally tuckered out"

I think we have a disconnect here- my gripe is that most of the healing magic we've seen in the game does not work unless you have a HS. This doesn't seem magical to our group. If it did work when you were tapped out, that would feel like magic to us.

FWIW I would have the first MC feat give: (i) qualification for PPs and so on...

Yeah, ditto that! I found it incomprehensibly bad that the Ranger MC feat does not grant the class feature that lets you qualify for most of their PPs.

* my favorite acronym in 4Ed, btw.

delericho · Dec 31, 2012

C4 said:
I’m starting to mull over a real 4.5e reboot – an ironing-out of core issues that have never been addressed, and a refinement of everything that makes 4e awesome. I already have a lengthening to-do list for this project, from ‘make the math simple and elegant’ to ‘reverse engineer PC power guidelines’ to ‘do something about Second Wind.’ But I also want to hear from other 4e fans.

The way you feel about 4e is exactly the way I feel about 3.5e. Unfortunately, I found that when I tried to actually fix the problems, there was always "one more thing" to fix. In time, it stopped being a matter of house rules and became a whole new game. And when I tried to write that whole new game, I found I didn't actually like it as much as the original!

My advice would be to try to find workarounds for the big things, apply house rules to fix the small things, and try hard not to think about it too much. Otherwise, you may find yourself on a never ending hunt for a perfection that doesn't really exist.

YMMV, of course. Good luck!

D'karr · Dec 31, 2012

Dannyalcatraz said:
Are you sure? Potions of healing, for instance, contain no such language.

Yes, that is how it works. Here's a quote from the Online compendium.

Online Compendium
Section - Healing the Dying
When an adventurer is dying, any healing restores him or her to at least 1 hit point. If someone has stabilized the character using the Heal skill but he or she receives no healing, he or she regains hit points after an extended rest.

Regain Hit Points: When an adventurer is dying and receives healing, he or she is considered to have 0 hit points, and then regains hit points from the healing effect. If the healing effect requires the adventurer to spend a healing surge but he or she has none left, the healing still helps a bit: The adventurer’s hit point total is restored to 1.

Become Conscious: As soon as an adventurer has a current hit point total higher than 0, he or she becomes conscious and is no longer dying. (The adventurer is still prone until he or she takes an action to stand up.)
Example: Fargrim is at -12 hit points, unconscious and dying. His companion, Valenae the cleric, uses healing word to help him. This assistance immediately raises Fargrim’s current hit points to 0 and allows him to spend a healing surge, boosted by 2d6 extra hit points from Valenae’s healing word. Valenae gets a 6 on the dice roll, so Fargrim regains a total of 21 hit points (15 from the healing surge plus 6 from healing word). He is restored to consciousness with a current hit point total of 21.

Published in Player's Handbook, page(s) 295, Rules Compendium, page(s) 261.

Emphasis above is mine to highlight the relevant section.

That's it. Is there language overriding that in the DMG? If so, where, 'cause if there is, our DM has some 'splainin' to do.

Each item doesn't necessarily need to call it out because it is a general rule.

(Not only that, that's fewer HP than my Warlock gets from a normal HS, which just reinforces that feeling that magical healing is "meh.")

I think we have a disconnect here- my gripe is that most of the healing magic we've seen in the game does not work unless you have a HS. This doesn't seem magical to our group. If it did work when you were tapped out, that would feel like magic to us.

I think that is done more because of the balancing act of cost/reward. Similar to how some rituals are expensive at low levels, but their cost can become trivial at higher level. I agree that it should work slightly different, but I wouldn't make the mistake of trivializing healing for that purpose. That's how we ended up in 3.x with Wands of Cure Light Wounds that were trivially priced.

The game already has many forms of surgeless healing. A "revision" should have looked at this and "fixed" the disconnect. BTW the Potion of Cure Light Wounds works differently. So the need for a "fix" was recognized by the designers.

Balesir · Dec 31, 2012

Raith5 said:
Agree but I would probably avoid the term Residuum. I really like the idea of ritual components being a key treasure item so that getting dragon teeth, wraith essence and demon ichor is a key part of doing rituals and making magic items. Sure gold or gems could be used I suppose, but the main source should be found in game or from alchemist shops.

For sure "Residuum" was part of the "unfortunate terms curse" that seemed to afflict 4e at the beginning... I'd be very open to a better word; "Exotic Ingredients", maybe?

The main point is to separate "money wealth" and "magic item capacity" entirely. Once you have done this, there is scope to play with the "Residuum/whatever" part. Maybe certain magical beasts require Residuum for their creation - and that Residuum can be recovered (as "Exotic Ingredients") when they die. Maybe a select few creatures actually create residuum when they breed - I imagine you could have a world where dragons yield "Exotic Ingredients" increasingly with age, leading to a whole array of politics around the killing of them and the preserving of them. In a world where "Exotic Ingredients" are created, you might have some "wastage", too, with each "Disenchant" ritual returning only 90% or so of the original quantity - just adjust treasure guidelines to replace such "natural losses" and the game would still work, and it would acquire a bit of the DM control over magic items that some folk seem to crave.

S'mon · Dec 31, 2012

Dannyalcatraz said:
Are you sure? Potions of healing, for instance, contain no such language.

PHB page 295 "Healing the Dying": "If the healing effect requires you to spend a healing surge but you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point".

Applies to potions same as everything else.