D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

SuperZero said:

Ah yes. I would so much rather become established and start to maybe think of these people as friends before finding out that, surprise! They hate me and I am not remotely safe around them.

I think I'm going to hold the marginalized person's safety and comfort over some vague idea of "beneficial to the hobby," as though the game itself might get its feelings hurt (and matters more than the people).
But hey, if "beneficial to the hobby" is so important, there could be, say, a blurb in the PHB that explicitly says they're welcome that could help deal with this problem of feeling unsafe around the game. Just an idea I had.

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Wow. That's a jump from "may insult" to "beat to a pulp". I wasn't assuming a physically threatening situation. In my entire life, I've witnessed maybe one incident of physical threat based off some form of discrimination and that never manifested actual violence. Even in "adult" life (quotes used because the behavior isn't adult), I've only witnessed insults and/or cold-shoulder type treatment. Those suck, but are in a completely different league than physical danger. My comments should be taken in that context.

Let me be really clear: Physical threats are always bad and it is better to know before going into danger.

If explicitly saying water is wet rather than just not mentioning it somehow attracts people, I'd feel sad. Also, that type of person is not one I'd want to play with as their focus in life is on what is between their legs rather than on things that matter, like getting that orc dead before it kills the blacksmith.

SuperZero said:

You sure care an awful lot for someone who doesn't give a crap.

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He's answering a statement you made to him. The sooner you stop ascribing motivations/arguments to him that he hasn't shown, the better. This is twice in a row you've done this. I also happen to agree with him in that there definitely is this attitude that if you don't agree with me as much as I do on something, that means you're actually against it. Which is complete BS.

Look, I'm a member of my PRIDE group; I'm very much pro GLBT rights. And I was glad to see that paragraph. But when I play an adventure, I only want things that are pertinent to that adventure to be taking up page space. Unless it's relevant to the game, gender identity, sexuality, left vs right handedness, eye color, disability status, whatever shouldn't be taking up space unless it impacts the game. That's what a DM is for, for goodness sake, to flesh out NPC traits to fit your game world. Where do you draw the line? Does WoTC need to make sure it specifically calls out gender identity? Sexuality? Left handed people? Allergies? Disabled? To be frank, if you say yes to some, but not to others, that makes you a hypocrite; someone who only wants their special interests included but not others. And as EW said, not only does that take up too much space when you include everything that a person could be, but it also takes away the time from the game designers to focus on the adventure.

Also, re: kings vs queens, marriages were almost always a matter of politics, not love or attraction. So just because a king has a queen doesn't mean one of them isn't gay. We have plenty of real life examples of this in history, actually.

5e has done a tremendous job of inclusion, from that paragraph already mentioned, to the description of succubus/incubi, which clearly portrays them as seduction monsters of every possible gender/identity combination. And as I said earlier. Jeremy Crawford is gay, so I trust him to make sure that the game felt inclusive. He knows better than anyone. Especially since he's said those very words himself in interviews.

Pauper said:

There seems to be an argument going on here, but danged if I can wrap my brain around the precise point of argument -- it seems that people are disagreeing on the degree to which the issue can be addressed at the game table rather than whether or not it's a good thing.

When I go into my FLGS on Wednesday for Encounters, I see a larger group of players than I've seen for any previous OP program, and that group includes openly transgender players, who seem to be having just as much fun as everybody else. I have no idea if the blurb in the 5E Player's Handbook enticed them into trying out the game, but they're here, and they're contributing to the health and enjoyment of the game, so I'm a fan.

I'd like to think that it's a surprisingly short step from "characters can be of any gender, or no gender, and can choose their own sexuality and that's fine" to "players can be of any gender, or no gender, and can choose their own sexuality and that's fine".

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IME there are far more arguments on a forum, then at the FLGS table. I think you have the right of it. I like oregano for its rich aroma, I grow oregano. Am I concerned that my neighbor grows and like oregano, too? Only if they insist that the best way to enjoy oregano is to have a six inch sprig stuffed way up into each nostril.

Sacrosanct said:

He's answering a statement you made to him. The sooner you stop ascribing motivations/arguments to him that he hasn't shown, the better. This is twice in a row you've done this. I also happen to agree with him in that there definitely is this attitude that if you don't agree with me as much as I do on something, that means you're actually against it. Which is complete BS..

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Yeah I run into a lot of attitudes were just saying "to each their own" and tolerating things isn't enough, you have to be all in like them.

And there other stereotypes as well in reference to you are dumb jock go swing your sword but if you study hard you will have flexibility of choice and can change the world.

MostlyDm said:

If a setting is appropriate for LGBT folk, my hope would be that the LGBT characters are played by the most cis-het players at the table... And vice versa. Of course, this last one is often seen by many as taboo or offensive. Another reason why I'm skeptical this form of inclusivity is really all that great.

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I just wanted to mention, as a straight guy, that my current Mage character ("Big Alex") is a transvestite. Biologically female, but presents and identifies as a male. I'm pretty sure most of the players have forgotten that he's actually biologically female.

Chocolategravy said:

If explicitly saying water is wet rather than just not mentioning it somehow attracts people, I'd feel sad. Also, that type of person is not one I'd want to play with as their focus in life is on what is between their legs rather than on things that matter, like getting that orc dead before it kills the blacksmith.

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I think the issue is more that the historic (perceived?) assumption is that water was either salt or fresh. Sometimes the fresh water felt that the salt water was a bit harsh. Also, tap water and distilled water didn't really fall under either category and desalinated water was really, really uncomfortable admitting to some groups that it used to be salty. Now, we just have "Hey, there's lots of different kinds of water. Heck, it's even okay to be vinegar. Have fun."

I don't have much time for folks who spend too much time obsessing over either end of the spectrum. As you say, go kill some orcs.

ExploderWizard said:

Except they are not, in the way you mean. What about people with disabilities? There is no shout out in the core rules to such people, so they are not recognized.

So WOTC doesn't specifically mention any options for PCs with disabilities therefore they are excluded from play? Under that definition do realize what a pain in the ass it would be to actually "include" by way of specific mention, ALL of humanity. It would be ridiculous. Whats the point of being inclusive unless you go all the way?

Not buying it. People are people. The sooner we stop pointing out all the things that make us different and concentrate on the things we share that bring us together to game the better it will be for the hobby.

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Of course, you say that statement without seriousness, but at this year's PaizoCon, someone approached Paizo at the diversity panel and asked for some representation of people with physical disabilities.

Disabilities are tricky as they have actual game impact. Exploring a dungeon with crutches is hard, and a couple disabilities are negative conditions.
Sure, the DM is fully able to allow for a handicapable adventurer, but others might opt for a more realistic medieval approach where physical disability is a hindrance to be overcome in the dungeon.


That said, the point of the reference is to raises awareness and encourage people to feel accepted. As geeks who may have been ostracized out entire lives, we should effing get that. It's like passing a car or entering a store and seeing a d20 sticker presented. It gives you a "yeah, these people are my people" feeling. You know you're welcome.

Transgender rights is arguably one of the fastest growing social movements, catching on to the wave of gay rights despite being very different. The amount of acceptance in just a short time is staggering. It wasn't all that long ago that "she's really a man!" was a punchline. (Just a few weeks ago I was watching a 2008 episode of the IT Crowd with a lengthy transgender bit.)
Saying "people are just people" ignores that issue. It seems like it's neutral, but the world isn't neutral to them. Changes need to be made. Laws need to be altered. How things are presented needs to change. Subtle bias needs to be removed. And that requires more attention and awareness than not actively hating.

Ironically, if people hadn't talked about it on-line, I would have never noticed the sex/gender section of the PHB. I've never read that entry in any other edition of an RPG, and I wasn't originally going to start with 5e.

I think I, and most grognards just assumed that the entire pantheon of sexuality that existed among humans in the real world also existed among humans in fantasy land. And with fantasy races, there could be flavors we don't even dream of. But, for those who needed it nailed down, good on Wizards for doing so.

I did find it funny that their example of "You can be anything you want" is a greater god.

They're still getting another dime from me until they start including badass art though.