Player asked for a favour: MC Barbarian-Warlock

Gwarok · Jul 10, 2018

I'd be fine with it, as long as it was restricted to just being effective with his pact weapon.

MechaTarrasque · Jul 10, 2018

Some people don't like "hit with charisma" (although if you haven't complained about shillelagh I think you don't have standing, since the hexblade is also using magic to hit with charisma). As long as the player doesn't try to get around "can't cast spells while raging", I think I would be good with it. I might suggest that charisma is morale in this case.

DEFCON 1 · Jul 10, 2018

So what if this Barbarian dumps STR for CHA?

A Barbarian PC usually would have high STR, relatively high CON, maybe a point or two in DEX for the AC boost, and then whatever is left over goes into INT, WIS or CHA. The barbarian is already MAD just like all STR-based characters are. But in this case... you swap out STR for CHA and everything else stays the same.

So as a result, this Barbarian is a couple points worse in Athletics (because they'll still probably be proficient in it), and a point or two better in the social skills (because they'll have a higher CHA but probably no proficiency in anything except Intimidation.) Big whoop.

How many people here think doing this for the barbarian is some sort of huge deal that shouldn't be allowed... but still allow the Paladin to multiclass with Warlock? Because there's virtually no difference between the two-- two big melee warriors getting warlock abilities. The only difference is that one of the two had WOTC TELL US that one of them should use CHA from the get-go (and dump DEX as a result of it.) So just because WotC says that the paladin should have a high CHA, it's perfectly fine for them to multiclass with Warlock with no issues?

I find it rather silly that it's apparently okay for any classes that got assigned the same ability score to use BY WOTC for their abilities are perfectly acceptable to multiclass well with each other... but the classes that WEREN'T given the same ability score focus by WotC are somehow some sort of major wall that shouldn't be allowed to cross. And this is exactly why we don't have any agile dual-wielding Barbarians either... because no one wants to allow Reckless or Rage to work with DEX for some belief that its going to "throw the whole system off!"

Bah! Bah, I say! Everything is just numbers. And this barbarian is going to roll attacks with a +5 bonus just like any other barbarian would. And their skills will be in the +1 to +4 range just like any other barbarian is. The only difference? This barbarian will actually GET ROLEPLAYED DIFFERENTLY than any other standard barbarian we see all the time, and to me, that's a BOON to the game and your table.

Paul Farquhar · Jul 10, 2018

I wouldn't allow it.

I would suggest that the player chooses a less OP variety of warlock to multiclass with. There are ways of making this an interesting character without rewriting the rules.

Rage makes you hit harder, not more charismatically.

I ban hexblades from multiclassing at my table.

Eltab · Jul 10, 2018

For a home table, sure go ahead. Tell the player you will run it as a test; if he unbalances fights (or something else) you will find out and can then adapt further or "make it didn't happen".

I am currently running an Arcane Trickster / Trickery Cleric. This is fun and flavorful but MAD. I picked Forest Gnome for his race so I would have decent (but not high) Spell Save DCs.

Sadras · Jul 10, 2018

posineg said:
Was the character a Barb first or a Warlock first? By your title, it looks like barb first. At what level did the MC start?

So we have just started a new campaign at 3rd. They have had one session so far and he asked me if he could not change one of the levels to Warlock. Generally I am easy within the first two sessions on changing up a few things.

Hawk Diesel said:
1) Will this player also want to cast spells or cantrips while raging?

Nope.

2) How, if at all, would this affect the advantage the player gains on Strength checks and saves while raging?

Not affected.

@DEFCON 1 - I pretty much agree with you on this.

I have had a look at the both the barbarian and the hexblade class. There is no real mechanical benefit I foresee that would be an issue at my table. I personally think the player is building his character incorrectly, said as much to him. There are better ways to make the concept through Background, Feats, Skills, Bonds, Flaws and Ideals - including a makeshift Patron Feat of sorts if need be. Failing that a combination of class features from the two classes.
As I see it the high Charisma is actually hindering him (points wise), he won't be casting offensive spells so he doesn't need the high DC and as for the Hexblade Curse minor healing it is not worth it if he only sees the character advancing to level 3.
Leaving the ability points in Strength actually works better since he intends to advance in Barbarian and Hexblade Curse works fine with that.

I think he is happy I said yes, but muddled that I provided so many possibly better options for building his character.

Thanks all.

EDIT: BTW @Seramus your comment was awesome!

BookBarbarian · Jul 10, 2018

Barb/Warlock already works surprisingly well. Especially with Fiend Patron adding Temp HPs and Rage making those Temp HPs more valuable. It's MAD, but guess what? All Barbarians are a MAD. Letting a multiclass bypass that MADness seems like a bad idea to me. Especially if you add in Elven Accuracy.

the Jester · Jul 10, 2018

No. I don't change the rules to make a character concept convenient. I'm afraid this guy would need to have a good strength and a good charisma to make his concept work- and that, I feel, is how it should be.

Warpiglet · Jul 10, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
I wouldn't allow it. It's a MAD build; those exist. It will work fine putting points into both Str and Wis.

On a related note, it seems like a "Totem Spirit" patron could be a great subclass.

Not only do they exist, but they can be fun because they are less common! If one stat powers everything, everything seems samey samey to me.

The fact that a melee sorcerer might have to pump strength AND charisma causes me no heartburn at all.

Essentially the character concept is totally legal within the rules. Bending the rules is merely to get a higher bonus. I dunno...sort of cheapens things for me. The way I see it, limitations make the game cooler and make exceptional things exceptional!

Of late in other threads I have discussed the need to put lower scores in some stats and it actually gives the character more character...(IMHO).

I am not disparaging the concept or the generosity of the DM if he grants it...but I like some things to be uncommon and for there to be trade offs. What is the worst case here if we don't bundle the stats/bonuses? He is an ASI behind in one stat? I think it is actually unnecessary to have 20s in a prime stat(s). Even at high level the difference between a 16 and 20 is the difference between finding a nice weapon and some people do and some people don't!

akr71 · Jul 10, 2018

posineg said:
Hex Warrior says "you can"... just use your Str/dex stat.

Was the character a Barb first or a Warlock first? By your title, it looks like barb first. At what level did the MC start?

If a Barb first, then str is the main stat from the beginning and to make a change part way through would take some doing, RP wise... maybe a generic feat to show training to use emotion(chr) as power rather than str.

I agree with this.

I would add that if the character was a Barb first, they likely heavily invested in Str/Dex/Con for Rage & Unarmored Defense. To turn around and invest heavily in a 4th stat (Cha) isn't likely to give you as much synergy as you'd like.

If the character was a Hexblade first, and then went all ragey, I might be more open to it.