Paizo To Make Kingmaker Bestiary... For D&D 5E!

5E seems like a good game. But it's lack of customization and options (relative to Pathfinder) prevents it from being a game that I want to play or run long term.

Not everyone wants their Fantasy RPG to be D&D 5E. It may be the 500lb gorilla right now but it's a relatively unappealing 500lb gorilla to me.

I'm not a huge fan of Pathfinder 2E as it was in the playtest, but the playtest for 1E was different than the finished product which is something alot of people and johnny come lately's on the Paizo forums seem to either not know or have forgotten that fact.

My plan is to continue running Pathfinder 1E using the massive amounts of material available. Run PF 2E to learn and get used to the system. I plan on using 5E only to run classic adventures like Keep on the Borderlands or a converted Village of Hommlet possibly for new players exclusively as an intro to RPG's.

I love how there are alot of people here saying that PF2 may be DOA. I remember many years ago many people on this forum saying the same thing about PF1. Granted the D&D brand was a lot weaker then, but the thing that the popular kids need to understand is that not everyone WANTS to play D&D. There are other options and PF IS one of those options. Also in this hobby people are more likely to crap all over something that ISNT the thing that they like or something that they like that is being changed in some significant way. Like I said wasnt a big fan of the playtest as a whole. There WERE things that I absolutely liked, the action economy system for one.

Anyway I can see how Paizo supporting 5E instead of continuing to support 1E is seen as a betrayal of sorts. I see the spot that they are in though. And to be honest if gamers we'rent so selfishly myopic they would see that buisness wise what Paizo is doing is absolutley the smart play.


Have support for thier new system in the form of a deluxe version of an older AP.
Have support for the popular system of choice and introduce those gamers to Paizo AP's. If it sells well enough Paizo will probably start to convert more older AP's to both 5E and PF2.
PF1 has had TEN YEARS of support with crap loads of products.

While players can still play and run games of PF1 until the cows come home it's time for Paizo to move on.

ShinHakkaider said:

I love how there are alot of people here saying that PF2 may be DOA. I remember many years ago many people on this forum saying the same thing about PF1. Granted the D&D brand was a lot weaker then, but the thing that the popular kids need to understand is that not everyone WANTS to play D&D. There are other options and PF IS one of those options. Also in this hobby people are more likely to crap all over something that ISNT the thing that they like or something that they like that is being changed in some significant way. Like I said wasnt a big fan of the playtest as a whole. There WERE things that I absolutely liked, the action economy system for one.

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To be fair, the people here say that PF2 may be DOA are saying that in reaction to the myriad PF1 edition warriors that actively denounce PF rather than any feelings of ill will to Paizo or PF2 themselves. Personally, I hope PF2 is a success—successes in this hobby are a great thing for the rest of the community. And, besides, Paizo are good people. However, you lot have an edition war on your hands just from a cursory look at the Paizo forums. I hope that war dies in a fire when PF2 is released.

If Pazio produces books for 5E, I will buy them. I’m not changing systems again anytime soon. 5E is perfect for teaching my kids D&D.

ShinHakkaider said:

5E seems like a good game. But it's lack of customization and options (relative to Pathfinder) prevents it from being a game that I want to play or run long term.

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And the heavy workload for the DM drove me away from d20/PF.

Look, we are many who are hungry for a game with more charbuild options: prestige classes, integrated magic item economy, and what not.

I just think the appetite for a game that doesn't offer easy NPC prep and thoroughly solved LFQW is much much lower in 2020 than in 2010 or in 2000. I don't think many RPG consumers will stand for it.

Also, every other publisher than WotC is a miniscule operation. The only reason Paizo could grow was because their game had an intimate relation to D&D proper. By going independent Paizo is likely joining the ranks of entirely inconsequential micro publishers.

I fear Paizo has completely missed the boat here. All the boats.

CapnZapp said:

And the heavy workload for the DM drove me away from d20/PF.

Look, we are many who are hungry for a game with more charbuild options: prestige classes, integrated magic item economy, and what not.

I just think the appetite for a game that doesn't offer easy NPC prep and thoroughly solved LFQW is much much lower in 2020 than in 2010 or in 2000. I don't think many RPG consumers will stand for it.

Also, every other publisher than WotC is a miniscule operation. The only reason Paizo could grow was because their game had an intimate relation to D&D proper. By going independent Paizo is likely joining the ranks of entirely inconsequential micro publishers.

I fear Paizo has completely missed the boat here. All the boats.

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I personally do not feel the LFQW thing is even a FACTOR with how popular 5e has become. If THAT was the deciding factor, 4e would have won the gambit by a long mile.

5e is successful because it is FAR easier to general people to learn, and when new players are coming to a game, ease of use is a major factor.

Eventually some may want something different, but for new players, 5e currently is one of the easiest games to learn within a short period that fall under the popular name brand of D&D (aka...any type of game that would fall under the D20 mechanic of games).

It has nothing to do with LFQW per se, and more to do with the fact that a LOT OF NEW gamers are coming into RPGs and are actually able to figure out how to play with a minimum amount of trouble and confusion.

That's the real key to 5e's success today. It is attracting NEW gamers, rather than just appealing to old gamers who keep bringing up old thoughts such as LFQW and other relics of a bygone age of angst and discussion about "balance" and other items that seemed so pertinent 10-20 years ago.

This does not mean that you are not correct to some degree, but my personal feeling differs on why 5e is being so successful and what is actually bringing in new gamers (most of who have never even heard of LFQW).

CapnZapp said:

I just think the appetite for a game that doesn't offer easy NPC prep and thoroughly solved LFQW is much much lower in 2020 than in 2010 or in 2000. I don't think many RPG consumers will stand for it.

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PF2 has done quite a lot to deal with LFQW, or at least tried. It's a bit hard to say based on the playtest, because magic was nerfed a bit too hard and they'll compensate a bit in the actual rules, but some changes:

• Spell effect is based on spell level, not caster level. This is a harsher version than in 5e, because PF2 still has Vancian casting so if you want 5th level damage from your fireball, you need to prepare it at 5th level. Sorcerers can have a few spells where they can upcast them on the fly. On the upside, they are using upcast low-level spells to alter the spell in ways beyond the purely numeric (stronger effect/more targets) that 5e has. For example, instead of having both charm person and charm monster, being able to affect non-humanoids is what happens when you cast charm at 4th level.
• Buff spells often require concentration, which takes up one action (out of three) each round.
• Many debuffs have a weakened effect on a successful save, a moderate effect on a failed save, and a strong effect on a critically failed save. For example, paralyze (the equivalent of hold person) gives the target slowed 1 (lose one action) for one round on a success, paralyzes them for one round on a failure, and paralyzes them for 4 rounds (with a save to break free each round) on a critical failure.

Azzy said:

However, you lot have an edition war on your hands just from a cursory look at the Paizo forums. I hope that war dies in a fire when PF2 is released.

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LOLZ. Edition War? Nah, compared to the switchover from 3.4 to 4.0 then to Pathfinder this is more like an edition skirmish.

Maybe an Edition slap-fight...

CapnZapp said:

Also, every other publisher than WotC is a miniscule operation. The only reason Paizo could grow was because their game had an intimate relation to D&D proper. By going independent Paizo is likely joining the ranks of entirely inconsequential micro publishers.

I fear Paizo has completely missed the boat here. All the boats.

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Paizo isn’t a minuscule operation. I want to say at this point that I think that they have more people working in house for them than the RPG dept at WOTC does. WOTC is a huge company but D&D is just one small part of that whole. And I really don’t think that there are as many people working Full Time in D&D than there are at Paizo.

As far as them missing the boat? Again with your micro publisher comment, I get the feeling that you don’t know that much about Paizo’s history and the background regarding the switch over from 3.5 to 4 and the reason that PF was formed to begin with. They got burned pretty badly hitching themselves to someone else’s properties. I think that their relative autonomy was/is a prime motivator here.

Paizo To Make Kingmaker Bestiary... For D&D 5E!

ShinHakkaider said:

Paizo isn’t a minuscule operation. I want to say at this point that I think that they have more people working in house for them than the RPG dept at WOTC does. WOTC is a huge company but D&D is just one small part of that whole. And I really don’t think that there are as many people working Full Time in D&D than there are at Paizo.

As far as them missing the boat? Again with your micro publisher comment, I get the feeling that you don’t know that much about Paizo’s history and the background regarding the switch over from 3.5 to 4 and the reason that PF was formed to begin with. They got burned pretty badly hitching themselves to someone else’s properties. I think that their relative autonomy was/is a prime motivator here.

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Indeed. And FFG and Games Workshop. I don’t know how GW and WotC compare, but GW is a behemoth. It just has an entirely separate fan base.

I think the point that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] was trying to make is that Pathfinder is a pretty small slice of the RPG market. Considering that the RPG market without WotC producing any new books is about 15 million dollars (and that included 3e and 4e at the time), it's not really too much of a stretch to think that Pathfinder's market share isn't really large.

I realize that the common wisdom is that WotC is the 600 pound gorilla, but, really, we don't know how the market slices up.