D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Yaarel · Jun 5, 2019

[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

I really want to consolidate AC and Reflex.

So, a sword attacks the Reflex defense. A ray attacks the Reflex defense.

An armor improves the Reflex defense, if the Strength/Constitution prerequisite is met.

Tony Vargas · Jun 5, 2019

Yaarel said:
[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

I really want to consolidate AC and Reflex.

What's the rationale for, to use a 3e-ism, a 'touch attack' needing to theoretically penetrate armor?

I mean, not that you need one, 5e just straight up works that way, anyhow. Just wondering.

Zardnaar · Jun 5, 2019

Yaarel said:
I think everybody here agrees that 4e-style Constitution is superior? So, add the SCORE at level 1, and never additional BONUS hit points. This removes low level fragility, and avoids high level hitpoint inflation.

(Optional Variant, if players like fragile low levels: add the bonus once at each tier, at levels 1, 5, 13, 21?)

The reason I changed it was because of legal reasons, can't just really copy and paste the PHB. More HP than 4E, less healing surges.

Yaarel · Jun 5, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
What's the rationale for, to use a 3e-ism, a 'touch attack' needing to theoretically penetrate armor?

I mean, not that you need one, 5e just straight up works that way, anyhow. Just wondering.

Reflex plus AC is such a redundancy. Moreover I see no need for a ‘touch’ attack, it is simply Reflex.

For example, shield really does help Reflex in the sense of deflecting an attack and getting out of its way. A shield helps against a magical ray.

If someone wants to call it the ‘Reflex defense’ or the ‘Armor defense’, I am happy either way, as long as they are the same thing.

Yaarel · Jun 5, 2019

Zardnaar said:
The reason I changed it was because of legal reasons, can't just really copy and paste the PHB. More HP than 4E, less healing surges.

Legal reasons, it is impossible to copyright a calculation.

There is no problem using the Constitution score rather than the accumulating bonuses. The word ‘Constitution’ and ‘score’ are legally available too because of the 5e agreement.

The 4e-ism of using the score is ok.

The only difficulty I foresee is, if using standard 5e monsters, they will have inflated hit points relative to player characters, but maybe that is ok?

Zardnaar · Jun 5, 2019

Yaarel said:
Since 4e level 1 doesnt really happen until 5e level 5, it seems worthwhile to split up the concept of ‘class’ into separate tiers. In other words, a ‘class’ includes impactful choices, at different tiers. At level 1, the player chooses a Student Course. At level 5, the player chooses a Heroic Profession. At level 13, the player chooses a Paragon Path. At level 21, the player chooses an Epic Destiny.

This means the Student tier is more like level zero. Low level Courses include basic fighting skills, basic stealth skills, basic casting skills, or so on. For example, Cleric is a Profession that begins at level 5. The Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to spellcasting, such as a Healer (thus comes with extra magical abilities), while an other Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to fighting (thus sports heavy armor and a special weapon). Both Clerics, regardless of earlier Student tier choices, would progress according to the Cleric Profession, from levels 5 to 12.

At level 13, the Cleric chooses one from a number of Paths.

At level 21, the player picks one from a number of Destinies.

A core ‘base’ class comes with an advancement track, that includes a default Course, Profession, Path, and Destiny. But a player can mix-and-match these according to taste.

4e style works well with the above approach from level 5 and up. Likewise level 0 flavors, such as Harry Potter wizard students or the kid longing to be a knight, get handled at levels 1 to 4.

A Wizard might well come from a Student Course that specializes in swordfighting, and really only begins spellcasting at level 5.

Student Tier
• Course (levels 1 to 4)

Heroic Tier
• Profession (levels 5 to 12)

Paragon Tier
• Path (levels 13 to 20)

Epic Tier
• Destiny (levels 21 to 24)

I won't be doing above 21, wasn't planning on doing anything but I can do a template and design and people can take it from their if they want to go to level 30 that is on them. Cart before horse anyway, I would make some lvl 1 precons, then extend to level 5, then add in some other classes.

After you have done the precons then make up the missing powers, then expand level by level to 5. Do people like 4E type at wills or use the 5E ones and add some missing ones in?

And hopw do you use 1W, 2 etc make it a flat bonus like 1d10, 2d10 etc or use 5E type attacks?

Tony Vargas · Jun 5, 2019

Yaarel said:
Reflex plus AC is such a redundancy. Moreover I see no need for a ‘touch’ attack, it is simply Reflex.

For example, shield really does help Reflex in the sense of deflecting an attack and getting out of its way. A shield helps against a magical ray.

Why doesn't the ray just affect the shield?
Why does full plate work against a magic ray?

IIF, you're not going to have armor decrease damage like in.. everything else, prettymuch ..but are going with the hoary D&Dism of armor making you harder to 'hit' because attacks have to penetrate it, then breaking out a Touch AC or REF defense makes a lot of sense. It doesn't matter if a lasso or bolas is wrapped around the part of your leg covered by your greaves or not. If you're covered in burning oil or greek fire, metal armor is going to act as a personal dutch oven, and other types are just going to add to the conflagration. That kinda thing.

(Sure, with magical touch attacks, you can wiggle around it: say the magic requires you touch the target's flesh, and armor matters again.)

Zardnaar · Jun 5, 2019

Yaarel said:
Legal reasons, it is impossible to copyright a calculation.

There is no problem using the Constitution score rather than the accumulating bonuses. The word ‘Constitution’ and ‘score’ are legally available too because of the 5e agreement.

The 4e-ism of using the score is ok.

The only difficulty I foresee is, if using standard 5e monsters, they will have inflated hit points relative to player characters, but maybe that is ok?

The monsters will be rewritten. Some could be merged I suppose eg use the 5E monster slightly changed with some 4E abilites tacked on.

Yaarel · Jun 5, 2019

Regarding hit points.

Suppose each race has base hit points.

(Tiny) 4 hit points
(Small) 6 hit points
(Medium) 8 hit points
(Powerful Build) 10 hit points
(Large) 12 hit points

Then add 2x Constitution bonus on top of this. Plus class hit points.

Yaarel · Jun 5, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Why doesn't the ray just affect the shield?
Why does full plate work against a magic ray?

IIF, you're not going to have armor decrease damage like in.. everything else, prettymuch ..but are going with the hoary D&Dism of armor making you harder to 'hit' because attacks have to penetrate it, then breaking out a Touch AC or REF defense makes a lot of sense. It doesn't matter if a lasso or bolas is wrapped around the part of your leg covered by your greaves or not. If you're covered in burning oil or greek fire, metal armor is going to act as a personal dutch oven, and other types are just going to add to the conflagration. That kinda thing.

(Sure, with magical touch attacks, you can wiggle around it: say the magic requires you touch the target's flesh, and armor matters again.)

5e hates to attack attended objects − but rationally, the magic ray damages the shield or the plate armor, not the person. Or the shield or armor actually reflects or deflects while being only cosmetically damaged.

Armor, including a shield and a heavy cloth armor (gambeson) definitely help escape burns from burning oil.