D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them." Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better...

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 

rmcoen

Adventurer
Seems like I read a game or a class recently - this thread? a link? - where powerful spells were built across rounds like [MENTION=6873517]Jay Verkuilen[/MENTION] mentioned. Your normal comabt actions were Words of Power, which had a low-level effect. But over time, the Words you used in the combat built more powerful spells with more powerful effects. Making up an example: Force (direct damage spell) + Levitation (perhaps used as a defense, lifting a temporary shield of debris to block an attack) + wYld (raw power, used to push enemies back a few steps) = FLY, enabling the wizard to escape from his foes and hover above the field of battle. 3 rounds to cast, with minor beneficial effects along the way.

But then we're designing a whole new magic system, which isn't the same as "fixing" D&D. Guys (and gals), we're 89 pages into this disucssion. While a very interesting debate that has wandered about the field of battle.... what's the point? what's the goal? Are we trying to make 4e less artificially balanced? Give 5e martial characters more flash, more high level power? Make a better mousetrap?
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Short answers today...
That resource game doesn't depend on tracking time as Gygax describes it. It depends on knowing when an encounter ends; and knowing when the PCs take a long rest.

You can amp it up if you want to - nothing in 4e stops you from tracking rations, for instance, or tracking travel time across the wastelands - but the game doesn't require it. For instance, a trip across the wastelands can be framed as a skill challenge, and thus a single encounter and so no reuse of encounter powers, and the game will work fine - in fact, I would argue, better than it would if you actually tracked the time Gygax-style.
Unless the design intent of that trip across the wastelands is to drain the PCs' resources such that they're at less than full pop when they get to wherever they're going. The problem here is the amount of auto-recovery the game as written bestows between 'encounters' and-or on a short rest, unless and until one starts heavily houseruling.

Time is part of resolution
AD&D: healing, travel, wandering monsters, rations, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting, are all related to the passage of ingame time, and just as Gygax says managing time is an aspect of skilled play.
For AD&D another big one is spell and-or effect durations.

But my subsequent experience with 4e and other systems without this headache mean that I would personally never go back to such a system. (The few times in the past few years when I've run a session of AD&D have been pure dungeon-crawl, which doesn't have the problem because there is no pacing to manage in such a game.)
Even in a pure AD&D dungeon crawl there's still loads of time-related things that need tracking: movement rates, spell durations, wadering monsters if you use 'em, and even something so simple as whether it's day or night if some monsters only come out at night...

Nonsense. This goes back to fiction first as a feature of 4e compared to other D&D editions.

I don't need game mechanics to tell me that an ogre is a huge bruiser that can kill most ordinary people with a single swing of its club. That's the fiction. I only need game mechanics if something happens at the table - eg a player declares that his/her PC tries to beat the ogre in a fight. And then I can adapt whatever mechanics will give voice to this fiction. If the PC is low heroid, I will probably stat the ogre as a solo or an elite - which, mechanically, gives voice to the fiction that a low heroic tier PC probably can't best an ogre on his/her own. If the PC is upper heroic, then I can use a standard ogre straight out of the MM. If the PC is on the way through paragon tier, then I will probabl use one of the ogre minions from the MM - Lancelot cuts down anything less than a full-fledged giant with a single blow from his sword!

As I was discussing upthread with @Sadras, this is all about fiction first, mechanics second and in direct response to that prior fiction.
So, three ogres: one an elite, one 'standard', and one minion. Sounds fine...until you ask how that 1-h.p. minion possibly managed to survive growing up in a colony of might-makes-right ogres, or how it's lasted this long without suffering the one little scratch or accident that would do the one point damage required to kill it, and so on.

More broadly, if the fiction works in a particular way when PCs are involved then it also has to work the same when the PCs are not around: the 1-hit-point minion has one hit point. Period. Without this the fictional setting and background becomes nothing more than internally-inconsistent - and thus worthless - garbage.

And in this I AM putting fiction first, because if the fiction doesn't work right then the whole game kinda falls apart.

This seems a complete non-sequitur. I don't care about resource attrition, in the sense that I think it is one of the least interesting features of RPG play. But I certainly care about action declarations, and the capacity of players to impact the fiction by declaring actions for their PCs.

Hence I try to avoid games where some players get more resources than others unless the GM plays (what I regard as) a tedious game of resource attrition.
It's not a non-sequitur at all.

If a resource is limitless then it's only natural to use it as if it were - you guessed it - limitless! Resource attrition is meaningless when the supply of said resource is infinite, and this endless availability is going to inevitably affect what actions the players declare.

As soon as resources become limited, however, those actions come with choices regarding resource use vs resource conservation. Far more interesting, and - yes - sometimes far more challenging.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Argh Perhaps your typing voice sounds like someone else that Shas character lol ... I am a proponent of spell complications even more than any simple failure because it makes better more awesome story.

Dont blame me because you cant keep the argument straight. Its all just confirmation bias anyway.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
(2) Contra [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] and maybe some others, it's simply not true that differential XP tables in AD&D made fighters stronger than wizards at mid-to-upper levels. A 6th level wizard needs 40,000 XP compared to a fighter's 35,000; a 7th level wizard needs 60,000 XP compared to a fighter's 70,000; and from there it only gets better for the wizard through 13th level (1,125,000 for the wizard compared to 1,250,000 for the fighter). Parity is reestablished at 14th level (both need 1,500,000) and then the wizard falls behind again because s/he needs 375,000 rather than 250,000 per level gained.
This is quite true, and probably a cause for much houseruling over the years. :)

I know I've tweaked the 1e advamcement tables numerous times over the years, and I also know I'm far from alone in this. But even though Gygax's original tables had problems, as you point out, that doesn't mean the base concept of uneven advancement has no merit at all.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Right. I think one of the big feature/bugs of Vancian casting is this idea that a Wizard goes from 'barely can cast anything' of some fantasy literature 'powerhouse Wizard' to being a 'Vancian demigod' — except, unlike any of that literature, they get to keep options from each of those set of levels.

When it should likely be more similar to Harry Potter's scenario of mostly cantrips+rituals, but a very small number of powerhouse Wizards can cast bigger options or trigger ritual options similar to the battle at the end of the books, and then a handful of Wizards can pull off the options that happen in the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore.

(edit: and even for them, it isn't clear that they can maintain that level of power on a daily basis, but rather it takes a lot out of them, as Voldemort doesn't do it in the final battle)

In the Harry Potter world you never see a Muggle, I mean Fighter participating at all so I am not sure that it would balance magic in the way that someone like Gar would enjoy at all!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Part 2
I do not mind at-will cantrips, but I think it's a matter of what and how. Cantrips seem appropriate for tying to an ability/skill check system. But you can also scale them back or toss out things like attack cantrips. A number of spell systems that I do like (e.g., True20/Blue Rose) are essentially cantrip skills cast against failure or possible fatigue. Beyond the Wall also makes cantrips into an ability check to cast.
Plan B here might be to tie the total number of cantrips you can cast in a day to a stat - Int for wizards, Wis for clerics - or maybe instead Con or Cha for all?

Reworking spells is always a plus, though those spoiled wizard kids will not like nerfs to their spells.
Fear not, I'd also undo some other nerfs that have crept in. End result would probably be an overall reduction in utility and an overall improvement to blasting (though with risks!).

Sadly, one of the great taboos would be to readjust spell levels for certain spells. For example, making Fly, Fireball, or Invisibility come at a higher level. Scale back the spell utility progression.
I'd leave Fireball and the like where they are; blasting has been nerfed so badly over the years that it's now in need of some help! Invisibility has never bothered me much, perhaps because I'm also not at all shy as DM about using it against the PCs... :)

Getting rid of the knocks, find traps, and spider climbs and such would also be somewhat welcome. But you know they would come back in another splat book, because spellcasters get cool new options via expanded spells. Martials? Not so much.
Yeah, nothing can be done about splats or houserules or 3pp stuff. All we can do is whiteboard about the root design.

You'll get no debate from me here. I never liked pre-memorization. But I would also consider removing "pray for spells" for clerics as well, as it also affords them a lot of flexibility.
Clerics would be fully wild card by level as well. (I always forget to mention this; as we've had clerics be fully wild-card for 30+ years, to me it's just a fact of life...)

I agree, but I am not necessarily proposing that the sage should know all the things. It could be about more practical knowledge like healing, inspiration, comprehending languages and writing, runes, rituals, magical crafting, etc.
Ah, OK.
 

rmcoen

Adventurer
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] you are using the minion mechanic and then slamming it for being different. Accepting the use of the minion mechanic - which exists for "cinematic fantasy" battles, primarily - means accepting the intent of them as well. The "minion ogre", as the quoted contributor described, is still an ogre; it's just the PC's view of it on teh advancement track. Up the mountain at level 1, equal at level 10, far below at level 16. No reason to waste 2 hours of table time battling out what is already known for the "ogre vs. high paragon" battle.. Maybe it lands a hit, maybe it doesn't, battle is over.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I have played in some campaigns that have implemented these rules. The wizard had vastly more "spells known" than the Sorcerer, but the Sorc had vastly more spell slots to work with. I disagree with #8 though - all your other suggestions lean toward making things more fluid (with risk), this seems like an arbitrary restriction.
It is. Very, very intentionally so.

It's to force casters to move away from just spamming one low-level combat spell (usually magic missile) all day, and look at what other levels have; and at the same time restrict the number of a given utility spell (fly, invis., or whatever) that they'd otherwise be able to overdo.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] you are using the minion mechanic and then slamming it for being different. Accepting the use of the minion mechanic - which exists for "cinematic fantasy" battles, primarily - means accepting the intent of them as well. The "minion ogre", as the quoted contributor described, is still an ogre; it's just the PC's view of it on teh advancement track. Up the mountain at level 1, equal at level 10, far below at level 16. No reason to waste 2 hours of table time battling out what is already known for the "ogre vs. high paragon" battle.. Maybe it lands a hit, maybe it doesn't, battle is over.
How and where am I using the minion mechanic? Or even accepting it?

And in the ogre-vs-high-paragon battle, maybe the ogre lands a hit, maybe it doesn't, and maybe the paragon PC messes up and breaks her weapon in the process causing consequences down the road when a bigger battle arises and she doesn't have said weapon....

Never mind that a bog-standard ogre is still likely to have more h.p. than a high-level PC can get through in one hit or even two; where a minion never does.

(side note: if a simple one-v-one battle like this takes two hours to play out at the table, someone's doing something wrong)
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I'm not directly familiar with Saga Edition, but I have heard people speculate (gesturing to the Original Post) that 4E would have gone over better if it was more like Saga Edition.

That and Book of Nine Swords, which was just damned cool. I played a good bit of Saga and it had some very good aspects, though it's been so long... uh, 2010... I don't really remember too many details but it was pretty clear that it was used as a testbed for 4E.
 

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