Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

D&D Beyond has provided yet another of it's data dumps of 12 million characters -- this time telling us character alignments are most popular in D&D. Chaotic Good wins, followed by my least favourite as a DM, Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is the least popular.

Screenshot 2019-06-13 at 23.14.00.png



The developer does say that this does not count the percentage of characters with no alignment selected. You can see the original video here.
 
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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Bouncing into the middle of a long thread straight from the OP:

CG classically is a "Commit random acts of kindness and senseless deeds of beauty" orientation.
PCs like CG because it allows them to commit Evil deeds (kill intelligent beings and/or steal their stuff) while in the service of a good outcome in the end.
As time has gone by, younger generations entering the hobby object more strongly to being told "If your character does X, your character will be Evil" - perhaps because they hear "... you will be Evil". CG alignment then serves as an 'escape hatch'.
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I wanted to break this out and deal with it separately, because that is not actually what the story claims.

Bizarrely, in the story - and I don't know if Margaret Weiss or Tracy Hickman is responsible for this line - the author has the embodiment of Good in the story claim that Good does not exist and that ultimately Good and Evil are identical. The Chronicles of the Dragonlance doesn't claim that the Kingpriest of Istar went bonkers, which would be reasonable, or that the Kingpriest fell in an act of Hubris, which would also be reasonable.

Interesting. I haven't read any Dragonlance since the '80s so I was going on memory and Wikipedia, which didn't have a lot of details.

I'm in a campaign where, after winding the Horn of Change, we drove many of the forces of chaos out of the campaign world but this has created a real problem with the White Lords, a super activist Lawful Good group, taking over our characters' home city. They seem to be pretty set up for a fall when they go on the military warpath, though. So it's an intriguing idea that can be explored in a variety of ways.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
When I run my "godless" settings, this is generally how I handle alignment, it's a matter of perception. Good people do evil and claim it as good, evil people do good in order to further evil causes, they all think their position is the most reasonable and rational one and everyone else is crazy for not seeing the righteousness of their perspective.

But I don't particularly find this works well in a "alignment is real". Good and evil, chaotic and lawful are all defined by the very reality they exist in. People may still act outside those things and claim they were doing it with greater purpose and attempt to justify themselves, but justified evil is still not good.

Which is one reason I always enjoy playing LE over LG.

I'm running a godless setting at the moment---I seem to gravitate to those---but in this case, Law and Chaos have taken over as the real prime mover forces. As I've said to folks playing in my games, all my games tend to have a hefty dose of Michael Moorcock and Fritz Leiber influence.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Bouncing into the middle of a long thread straight from the OP:

CG classically is a "Commit random acts of kindness and senseless deeds of beauty" orientation.
PCs like CG because it allows them to commit Evil deeds (kill intelligent beings and/or steal their stuff) while in the service of a good outcome in the end.
As time has gone by, younger generations entering the hobby object more strongly to being told "If your character does X, your character will be Evil" - perhaps because they hear "... you will be Evil". CG alignment then serves as an 'escape hatch'.

I don't think it's just younger players. My guess is CG has been popular all the way back.
 

SDN

First Post
CN

There is actually an example of a Chaotic Neutral in Batman. Two-Face. He's a random number generator if he's being written straight. He goes off the rails because his concept of "good" is really closer to Lawful Neutral.

Warning - incoming rant.

I feel like Chaotic Neutral gets a bad rap from players that either misunderstand it or intentionally abuse it.

Yes, Chaotic *can* be a being of pure Chaos, but that's the farthest end of the spectrum that mere mortals can scarcely imagine.

For typical player races, Chaotic doesn't mean "acts completely at random" unless perhaps you are playing someone insane. Even the Joker from Batman does not act completely at random - he has motivations.

Yes, you think for yourself and don't let others tell you what to do, but you are still capable of working in groups and living in society at large, with all the expectations that brings.

Just like any other alignment, you need to use your character's values and motivations to decide whether to go along with the group/social consensus even if you disagree with it; if you decide to go off on your own path, it should be because to do otherwise would violate a deeply held value of your character with the understanding that there will be social consequences.

Sometimes those social consequences are enough to make a character, even a Chaotic one, conform. You still thought for yourself, and when weighing all the outcomes decided it was better to sacrifice your ideals *this time* rather than face the potential consequences, such as going to jail, losing your job, or even just wasting time rehashing a tired argument.

Similarly, Neutral does not typically mean that you swing wildly back and forth between the extremes of Good and Evil (or Law and Chaos) depending on your mood. No, usually it means that you are just an average person, not willing to give up everything to do what is right, and also not intentionally harming others. You do the best you can with the least effort required because you probably do not actually feel that strongly about whatever moral beliefs you hold.

You may lean Good towards certain groups or individuals, you may lean Evil towards others, and with enough incentive you might lean even farther one way or the other - but that's also true for every alignment.

Now, none of that is to say that you can't play a character devoted to the ideas of Chaos and Neutrality, but even such a character will have motivations that guide their decisions.

So yeah, you can play CN as "do whatever the hell I want because Chaos! and Neutral!" - but then it doesn't really matter what you write in the alignment box because you're not role-playing your character anyway - how can you when your character has no motivations?

Anyway, rant over.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Bouncing into the middle of a long thread straight from the OP:

CG classically is a "Commit random acts of kindness and senseless deeds of beauty" orientation.

So far, so good.

PCs like CG because it allows them to commit Evil deeds (kill intelligent beings and/or steal their stuff) while in the service of a good outcome in the end.

This I strongly object to on several grounds. First, it belongs to the hideous bias that chaotic is a conditional that makes something less good, while lawful is something that makes something more good. Thus, in this construction Lawful Good is more good than Chaotic Good, and Lawful Evil is more good than Chaotic Evil. This I reject entirely. Both Chaotic and Lawful are equally concerned with good and evil, and so Lawful Good is all other things being equal no more good or less good than Chaotic Good. Chaotic Good is not a pass that lets you occasionally be evil.

Secondly, by your construction, Chaotic Good is differing from Chaotic Evil only by some relative degree and not some difference in kind. Basically, you've asserted that Chaotic Good gives you a certain number of passes to be evil while Chaotic Evil gives you more passes to be evil. But you haven't really said how much, so you could also argue that as long as you thought you were doing things "for the greater good" that you could do exactly what Chaotic Evil would do and yet on the net you would be Chaotic Good.

And thirdly, perhaps most surprisingly, this justification of "for the greater good" is exactly the same justification that Lawful Evil would make for committing acts of evil. A Lawful Evil PC could (and I will argue would) claim that murder and theft could be justified if the net result of his acts brought success (and weal of some sort) for his people. Thus, for example, a LE character might argue that his theft and murder was justified because in the end it would benefit his family, his community or his nation. And this perspective is actually entirely the opposite of the perspective of CG, because - since Chaotic is all about individualism and freedom - committing evil acts against individuals in the name of "the greater good" is from the perspective of CG exactly what is wrong with the world and exactly what CG will claim is the basis of evil - the dehumanization of individuals by assigning them collective identities.

So, no, that is not what CG is about and indeed in many ways is it's opposite.

Chaotic Good is good where the individual's own conscious and reason, and the circumstances of the moment, and the needs of the individual are allowed to outweigh any set of rigid rules regarding how to behave. In other words, it's a philosophy that bases itself around acts of compassion and mercy between individuals, rather than around a set of defined duties and moral codes. From the perspective of LG, this is dangerous because the individual will be tempted to justify acts of selfishness and self-serving acts of evil as Good - just as you have done when trying to argue that CG allows you to commit murder or theft if it is in a good cause. This shouldn't be surprising, because LG naturally considers both LE and CG to have departed more or less equally from the righteous path. CG on the other hand looking at LG, argues that having a limited and rigid set of duties allows LG to argue its way out of committing acts of goodness because it's already done 'enough' according to its moral code, and further that it has the core philosophy it sees underlying evil, that is the dehumanization of individuals by representing them as members of a collective - whether it be 'citizens', 'fathers', 'soldiers', 'women', 'children' or what not.

So in practice, CG is actually among the least, and perhaps the least likely of any moral philosophy on the great wheel to justify killing an intelligent being and taking their stuff, because they don't see beings according to classifications but as individuals. A CG individual is not going to be inclined to prejudge anything according to appearances or norms, and will require some sort of proof that the individual beings in question have committed crimes worthy of death and are unrepentant about it before exacting any sort of penalty. Indeed, most CG individuals are going to err on the side of only killing in self-defense and will err on the side of assuming that the individuals they are confronting are only violent in self-defense (that is, they will tend to see themselves as trespassers, and the individuals they are facing have the same rights of self-defense that they would have in the same situation).

CG alignment then serves as an 'escape hatch'.

I agree that CG serves as an 'escape hatch', but I don't agree that it is the one you've identified. What CG allows a PC to do is not have any accountability to anyone but themselves. In other words, as a person that is CG, they are not under any obligation to have their actions reviewed by some superior, external judge. They are accountable mostly or entirely to the dictates of their own consciousness. Since most players hate feeling like they are constrained by any sort of rules, being able to decide for yourself what is good and right is liberating (and since freedom and liberation are really CG virtues this is really unsurprising).

Of course, if this self-centeredness in deciding what is right and wrong becomes too self-centered, either by being too passive ("I am not required to make any self-sacrifices to do good.") or too self-centered ("I am not required to consider at all what anyone else considers good, including even the target of my actions"), then that is Chaotic Neutral, since the ultimate end of such a philosophy would be that there is no such thing as right and wrong, only personal codes individuals have constructed on their own authority. And what I find in play is usually that a large percentage of people who write down CG actually want to play CN, while a large percentage of those that write down CN actually want to play CE. That is, they want to play CN as giving them a license to commit evil when it is to their benefit, and typically they'll see it as being to their benefit all the time, and their justification for this being "good" will typically only be that it is for some abstract "greater good" - which will eventually drag them all the way to neutral evil if they aren't careful.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It's been years since I watched Firefly, but IIRC Jayne had no connection to the pair and actually thought they were a threat to the ship. Getting money was icing on the cake. That does not mean he would have turned in Mal for a profit, Mal was a friend and someone who had his trust and respect.

As far as Han Solo ... I'd still say he was CN. After all he did shoot first in my version of the movies. He did what he did for money and then out of friendship and loyalty to Luke and Leia. I'm not convinced he did it for some greater good. After a while he may have shifted alignment somewhat, but how much of that was just because he was caught up in everything is impossible to tell. All we really know is that after the original trilogy and after he and Leia split he went back to being just another smuggler.

In both cases, the characters show loyalty and friendship even if there's no indication they were motivated by any sense of doing things for the greater good.

Exactly. And Jayne is deeply upset by his own actions, not wanting the others to know why he was being shot out the ship like so much space garbage. Where does that fit in describing his alignment?

CN characters can absolutely be reliable and trustworthy to the people they care about. Because being reliable to those people has absolutely frack-all to do with caring about reliability as a Good in itself. The CN doesn’t give a damn about the idea of reliability, and isn’t standing watch to meet some socio-cultural expectation (that would be lawful), or live up to some ethical code. They’re doing it because they care about the people they ride with.

Good doesnt hold any any sort of monopoly on caring about people.
 

Hussar

Legend
Or its a case of a character shifting alignment. would not be the first time in Wheedonverse shows. We won't ever know because the show got cancelled.

Good doesnt hold any any sort of monopoly on caring about people.

Umm, yes it does? Caring about people is the definition of good? If you actually care about people, that makes you good. Now, caring about this group of people once probably doesn't make you good, but, it makes you a bit leaning in that direction. Repeatedly caring about other people does show a pretty strong leaning towards good.

But, yeah, not caring about other people? That's pretty much the heart of what it means to be evil.

-----

And, [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION], LG being the most good has always been the standard in D&D. I'm surprised you'd argue otherwise. There's a reason paladins were restricted to LG, once upon a time. And, every archetype for LG is among the most good of characters - Superman, King Arthur, Gawain, that sort of thing. Chaotic is selfish it its heart. It's all about the self. You can't be as good as the selfless (Lawful) by definition.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Umm, yes it does? Caring about people is the definition of good? If you actually care about people, that makes you good. Now, caring about this group of people once probably doesn't make you good, but, it makes you a bit leaning in that direction. Repeatedly caring about other people does show a pretty strong leaning towards good.

But, yeah, not caring about other people? That's pretty much the heart of what it means to be evil.

Too broad. Too absolute. It’s not that evil characters cannot care about other people. They may well care deeply about a select few. LE mobsters may care deeply about their families... but, overall, their behavior in society in general is too violent and predatory to be anything but LE.

Neutral characters may care for a small circle of friends, family, and neighbors and stick up for them. But that would be because they have a close connection. They generally wouldn’t stick their necks out for people they don’t know, not without additional inducement. The difference isn’t that they won’t or can’t, rather, they aren’t strongly committed enough to altruism to do that for just anyone.

So good doesn’t hold a monopoly on caring for people, they just commit to it with a strength other alignments don’t.
 

Hussar

Legend
[MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION], I'd agree with that.

I wonder if you were to draw a venn diagram of those who argue that chaotics are trustworthy and responsible and those who personally identify with political ideologies that emphasize personal rights and responsibility and personal liberty, if there wouldn't be a very high degree of overlap. I usually find that folks have a very difficult time separating their personal ideologies from their hobbies and any time one conflicts with the other, it always must be the other people who are wrong and just don't understand. Regardless of the amount of evidence brought forth.

It's no different than when a beloved fictional character is changed and folks lose their cool. That character couldn't possibly change in that way, and it doesn't matter if the change is interesting or cool or even logical. It's not in keeping with their personal vision of that character, therefore everyone else must be wrong.

Or if a beloved author is criticised and shown to be perfectly normally human, with perfectly normal human failings. Again, regardless of any evidence or argument, other people MUST be wrong because if they aren't, then I might like something that isn't perfect. No it cannot possibly be that. It must be everyone else.

The truly funny thing is, twenty pages or so ago, I asked for an example of a reliable CN character. Twenty pages later, I'm still waiting. If CN is so reliable and trustworthy, surely there must be hundreds of examples. After all, I can give you a shopping list of LG characters that are reliable and trustworthy. What's the hold up? Why so shy?
 

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