How many C&Ds has WotC issued for 5E?

Mistwell · Mar 11, 2018

Ruin Explorer said:
The difference is that 4E had, at least by this long after release, a real, solid, official digital alternative with a very reasonable subscription fee. Whereas 5E has D&D Beyond, which is trash compared to the 4E offering, on a variety of levels

I had the 4e offering until the end, and I have D&D Beyond, and I would say now (finally) they are about equal.

And given the "everything" price, and that you share it out with a lot of people at once, the pricing isn't too far off either.

I think you're going off speculation rather than actual experience with D&D Beyond. That is not something you would have tolerated from other people concerning the 4e offering at the time, and I am not sure why you think others should be impressed from you doing it now with the 5e offering.

Prakriti · Mar 11, 2018

Corrosive said:
Curious really. I suspet they're all for character creator and other automated software or apps. At least the ones I can recall are. Is that the case?

Someone was combining all the Unearthed Arcana playtests into a single .pdf and formatting them similar to the PBH before they received a DMCA. Too bad, because it was a beautiful .pdf, fully illustrated and everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5twz0b/codex_unearthed_arcana/ded9jjk/

Jester David · Mar 11, 2018

Ruin Explorer said:
I can only compare what exists, and no, I'm not comparing them "at the end of their life". It's very clear you didn't use the 4E tools much after second iteration, if at all. So don't make things up.

No, again that's just rubbish. The second DDI site look good and ran well, and certainly looked 2010 or later. I do agree Silverlight was a huge problem, though. I imagine it looked like a good bet in 2009 when they were developing it, as it was still new - it came out in 2007 (not 2005).

A digital product that doesn't do the math is incredibly lazy design. I mean that's staggering.

First off, I don't think it did come out a "year later", not the second iteration one, though I don't remember the exact timeline (and I know you definitely don't!). Second off, the second iteration was a "renamer" for like a month, if that. Yes, they absolutely did finish it.

Beyond doesn't do subclasses. It also appears, from their pricing scheme, that if I, as a DM, wanted to share a Feat or magic item with a player, that I'd created, they'd need to be on a paid subscription plan of their own to have it shared.

If so, they're incompetent. But I know whoever is in charge of their digital stuff is incompetent, so that's not surprising. They've made nothing but bad decisions.

In 2015? I disagree. And given that they've C&D'd everyone who was effectively helping them... All competent IP-owning companies seek out companies to license their IP as well as letting people come to them. Some exclusively seek people out and are not interested in people coming to them.

That you're claiming otherwise is absolutely bizarre.

...

How is this difficult? Amazon gets money when Amazon gets paid. Amazon gets money when Curse gets paid. It's all Amazon.

No, Beyond is the same as the books from online purchasing.

You literally have to be joking. Beyond is a massive, cynical rip-off there. It's so awful I didn't even want to bother arguing about that. $10 will buy you 5 spells. Buying a background, subclass and the spells you'll likely use over your career will be very close in price to buying the entire book, certainly at least 50%. So no, Beyond is a much worse deal here.

I haven't used HeroLabs, but it really seems like you're being disingenous here, and that in fact one group can use one copy of HeroLabs just fine.

Because you're paying for the cost of the entire book. You are entering bad-faith arguing territory, now, so that's pretty crummy.

My wife actually did build a pretty superb 3E character builder, so that wasn't a great line of argument for you (and no, I'm not sharing it). Could we do better? Well with the access to the same resources, I absolutely guarantee it.

Uhhh, it's the exact same free content as elsewhere, MINUS all the UA content, and minus Mystics and Artificers.

Yes, that is interesting. They are definitely winking at copying PHB stuff in and so on for now. There weren't initially, but the guidelines for what's allowed mysteriously vanished and people are certainly getting away with it. Whether they will suddenly turn around on this, I dunno, but that is nice.

What the heck?

No, they would not. Just grey them out or something. It's not difficult. It's just basic bad design and basic bad business, you shouldn't be defending that. No-one needs to be "suddenly charged". Just have a greyed-out Duergar sitting there with a "purchase X to get this" option.

I just don't think you really used the 2nd iteration of the DDI very much, because those were first-iteration issues.

I'm not the one forgetting. You're the one who barely touched the second iteration.

No, it absolutely IS an ebook reader.

They literally justify charging full-price by saying it's full content. So you literally can't argue that. They made special proprietory e-books of the books for their app and everything. It is one of the core features of Beyond. It is absolutely not "just a character builder/manager". This is nuts.

It was definitely a fail from DDI. But it's a bigger fail from Beyond, because they do offer ebooks, it's just you can't read them offline (yet, they claim), and they justify their pricing by the fact that you get "all the content".

This isn’t a Chan board. If you are incapable of holding a discussion without being insulting and dismissive by saying “I don’t know what I’m talking about” then you’re not the kind of person I want to waste my time interacting with.

Good day sir.

Ruin Explorer · Mar 11, 2018

Mistwell said:
I had the 4e offering until the end, and I have D&D Beyond, and I would say now (finally) they are about equal.

And given the "everything" price, and that you share it out with a lot of people at once, the pricing isn't too far off either.

Re: pricing, can you expand on that?

I mean with 4E, I think I was paying like $10/month for the full deal (my email supports this), except for the "hilarious" time when digital river decided to charge me for four subs at once (they did fix it eventually and were so incompetent they may have left me slightly up on their error, albeit if I had had less in my bank account that would have been very bad).

So that's like $120/year. No-one else in the group paid anything because we just created the characters on my account and updated them after the session.

With Beyond if I was DM'ing (I'm playing, as I always said, I'd be happy to play 5E, not to DM it - but I have a friend who wants to DM it, and so I am interested in the costs), it looks like I'd be paying @$6/month (please let's ignore the 1 cents for simple math!). So that's less, way less - $72/year.

But realistically I'm in the sort of group that uses "all the sourcebooks" - but not the adventure paths. So that looks like PHB + DMG + MM = 90, Xanathar + Volo + SCAG = another 90, Tortles can sit and rotate, and looks like the rest is adventures? Mordenkainen isn't out so not counting.

So that's $180 to just be able do do what we'd normally do (I think we have all the sourcebooks I listed above - I only have a PHB and DMG myself - they are split amongst three people).

I have a migraine so please help if my math is terrible here. 72+180 = 252, so a little more than two years of DDI (and I admit Beyond has some stuff DDI didn't, and hopefully will have more! I am very unimpressed with some elements and more impressed with others). Let's say we ran 5E for three years, so 72x3 + 180 = $396.

That's only a little more than three years of DDI. Similar enough? I agree.

However let's say we get what, 6 more $30 books "required" (not really required, I agree, but by my group, yeah yeah insult us whatever) in that three-year period, does that seem reasonable at WotC's output? I mean I feel it is. That would mean another $180, which makes Beyond 50% more expensive, give or take, in real terms.

Then there's the weird player subscription deal, which seems unnecessary except maybe they have to pay to have access to the items and spells and stuff you homebrew? That's $3/month/player.

Mistwell said:
I think you're going off speculation rather than actual experience with D&D Beyond. That is not something you would have tolerated from other people concerning the 4e offering at the time, and I am not sure why you think others should be impressed from you doing it now with the 5e offering.

If I am indeed speculating, can you say where? I have a free Beyond, six characters on it, and have been fiddling around with the website on and off all day.

I mean, I agree, if I'm speculating about something and talking nonsense, I should be shot down, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. My big complaints are hard matters of fact - and indeed Stormknight (the official dude) on the Beyond forums hasn't suggested I'm outright wrong on them that I'm discussing here.

Jester David said:
This isn’t a Chan board. If you are incapable of holding a discussion without being insulting and dismissive by saying “I don’t know what I’m talking about” then you’re not the kind of person I want to waste my time interacting with.

Good day sir.

Fair enough. However you were arguing in bad faith...

Also presumably you mean "You don't..." also rather than "I don't..." or my migraine is REALLY confusing me.

LordEntrails · Mar 11, 2018

Jester David said:
That's only the ones we know of because the creators commented. We have no idea of the ones where the site just closed or the program vanished.

Seems like a smaller list than 4e, which had a few bog names (Ema's Character sheets - which I still miss - and MasterPlan).

Maybe people are finally learning that you can't/shouldn't steal from people/companies and fewer people have tried doing things illegally with 5E than they did with 4E? Maybe people are learning...?

Ruin Explorer said:
...- not least that in addition to the sub fee you have to re-purchase every book you've already purchased physically, and if I understand it correctly, you don't even get PDFs or offline-viewable content versions of the stuff you're paying full, physical-copy price for (it seems like there's some sort of half-arsed beta implementation that might do that, but it's clearly rather dubious).

Um, a few things here. If you want digital content then why did you buy the physical books in the first place? And then decide to complain about being asked to buy them again? I have a all the core books, plus many expansions and AP's (legally) and I have never bought a physical book. Nor do I plan to.

I've had these since May '15 (they were available about Feb '15) and new releases are available on the early WPN dates which is days/weeks before Amazon has them.

I get to read my digital products offline. I get then at something like 40% off MSRP. Sometimes I get them on sale for even less than that. And if I wanted everything, then I would get another 25% off with a bundle price.

People here almost seem to intentionally keep themselves ignorant of this. Seems to be some sort of prejudice based on misconceptions. If you want 5E in digital format, get a $4/month subscription or a $39 one-time license then buy everything else at the ~40% percent off; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/?sys=-1&pub=29&typ=-1&search=&sort=1

Ruin Explorer said:
...
Re: PF, does it require you to buy them full-real-world-price (i.e. Amazon price - Amazon own Curse and thus Beyond, note)? Does it give you PDFs/offline copies? If doesn't charge you full real price, and/or does give you PDFs, you're being disingenuous, and that sucks.

FG gives you offline access and they are ~40% off full price.

Also, I dunno what kind of wizardry we used because I don't run PF, but I paid nothing and got to use a character builder that had all the options I needed build my character last time I played PF (mid-2016). It didn't appear to be an official one either, but hadn't been C&D'd or anything.

So you were probably using something illegal and you are now complaining that you don't have such for 5E?

Further, it doesn't give you any PDFs - that may well be "On WotC", but it also means charging large one-off charges is just unreasonable, and charging the entire real-world price of a book you can't use offline is just laughable.

Now that I've educated you about this fallacy above, still got a complaint?

Ruin Explorer said:
A digital product that doesn't do the math is incredibly lazy design. I mean that's staggering.

I think the consideration here is that 5E doesn't have repeatable math to do (i.e. monster creation can not be fully automated.

Beyond doesn't do subclasses. It also appears, from their pricing scheme, that if I, as a DM, wanted to share a Feat or magic item with a player, that I'd created, they'd need to be on a paid subscription plan of their own to have it shared.

FG does sub-classes. And you can get a subscription or a one-time license.

No, they would not. Just grey them out or something. It's not difficult. It's just basic bad design and basic bad business, you shouldn't be defending that. No-one needs to be "suddenly charged". Just have a greyed-out Duergar sitting there with a "purchase X to get this" option.

Agreed on this. I think it would help their return sales as well. "Oh hey, you mean their is another race/class/option I can try? Only $2.99, I'll take a peak at that..."

They literally justify charging full-price by saying it's full content. So you literally can't argue that. They made special proprietory e-books of the books for their app and everything. It is one of the core features of Beyond. It is absolutely not "just a character builder/manager". This is nuts.

I thought the DDB prices were less than MSRP/full-price?

Ruin Explorer said:
...
With Beyond if I was DM'ing (I'm playing, as I always said, I'd be happy to play 5E, not to DM it - but I have a friend who wants to DM it, and so I am interested in the costs), it looks like I'd be paying @$6/month (please let's ignore the 1 cents for simple math!). So that's less, way less - $72/year.

But realistically I'm in the sort of group that uses "all the sourcebooks" - but not the adventure paths. So that looks like PHB + DMG + MM = 90, Xanathar + Volo + SCAG = another 90, Tortles can sit and rotate, and looks like the rest is adventures? Mordenkainen isn't out so not counting.

So that's $180 to just be able do do what we'd normally do (I think we have all the sourcebooks I listed above - I only have a PHB and DMG myself - they are split amongst three people).

I have a migraine so please help if my math is terrible here. 72+180 = 252, so a little more than two years of DDI (and I admit Beyond has some stuff DDI didn't, and hopefully will have more! I am very unimpressed with some elements and more impressed with others). Let's say we ran 5E for three years, so 72x3 + 180 = $396.

If you did the same with FG (and you would have never had to buy the printed books in the first place!)
A one-time license is $39,
PHB + DMG + MM = $90
Xan + Volo + SCAG = $90
Totaling $219

That gets you all the books in digital format for life. No subscription. With offline access. (and more capabilities than a PDF.)

If your group wants all the benefits of FG (such as sharing the books and a FULLY featured VTT)? Then the one-time ultimate license is $149 (though it's often on sale, like now). So that $219 goes to $329. Still less than your 3 years of DDI or DDB.

IMO, I agree that DDB is not worth the money. But their is, and has been for years, a digital 5E format for everything WotC. Not knowing that means you didn't do your homework, but that's ok. Now that you know, you should know better.

Full Disclosure:
Yes, Roll20 has a 5E license, but their products are at full/MSRP price (meaning just the products you listed above are much more expensive on Roll20 than buying them on FG with an FG license). AND not all the WotC products are available on Roll 20. AND, they are not available off-line or if Roll20 ever shuts down.

Their is also another digital partner for WotC, I think it's another VTT, but I don't think they have released anything yet. Not sure.

Jester David · Mar 11, 2018

LordEntrails said:
Maybe people are finally learning that you can't/shouldn't steal from people/companies and fewer people have tried doing things illegally with 5E than they did with 4E? Maybe people are learning...?

If I had to guess, I’d actually say the problem was the GSL and stuff that was acceptable under 3e no longer being acceptable in 4e. There was a learning curve, and people made mistakes. And WotC’s response was C&D rather than warning emails.

Plus, as we now know, 4e wasn't doing very well. I imagine WotC was looking outward for reasons the game was struggling, blaming piracy and fan sites for lost sales.

Gardens & Goblins · Mar 11, 2018

All of them. For the good on their hobby!

Yaarel · Mar 11, 2018

WotC in the 5e era does a pretty good job at balancing the rights of the corporation with the freedom of D&D as the culture of a community.

WotC gives full access to the 5e SRD, to modify at will and even sell independently. At the same time, the community can even gain full access to corporate trademarks and splatbooks, and sell via the Guild.

This is a wise business plan that makes WotC a good custodian of the D&D game.

Perhaps the only concern I hear players generally mention is access to various official settings via the guild. But it seems WotC has future plans for these other settings.

Yaarel · Mar 11, 2018

Jester David said:
Plus, as we now know, 4e wasn't doing very well. I imagine WotC was looking outward for reasons the game was struggling, blaming piracy and fan sites for lost sales.

4e would have done better. Even before the 4e core books went to print, I predicted the inflexible licensing for 4e would doom it. Independent corporations and players would have been able to add desirable options and more experimentation, to better develop 4e to meet the needs of more players. But it wasnt possible because of the licensing. And now there are very few 4e grognards keeping 4e alive − because of the draconian 4e licensing.

But for 5e, WotC seems to have learned from the 4e licensing mistakes, and even innovated licensing solutions for 5e.

I am satisfied with the licensing situation for 5e.

Yaarel · Mar 11, 2018

Prakriti said:
Someone was combining all the Unearthed Arcana playtests into a single .pdf and formatting them similar to the PBH before they received a DMCA. Too bad, because it was a beautiful .pdf, fully illustrated and everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5twz0b/codex_unearthed_arcana/ded9jjk/

From what I understand, there is no problem, if he publishes his Unearthed Arcana compendium in the DMs Guild, instead of Reddit. He can even offer it in the Guild for free. He can use his Reddit thread to link to his compendium page in the DMs Guild, so his readership downloads the compendium from the DMs Guild, instead of downloading it from Google.

It seems doable.