Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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Shiroiken

Legend
If I recall correctly, original D&D (including Basic) mainly gave XP for gold. Experience for defeating monsters was minimal, so adventurers often came up with ways to bi-pass monsters and just grab their treasure.
This is correct. In OD&D, Basic, and 1E, you gained far more experience for treasure than for killing monsters. 2E replaced this with methods of gaining xp for non-combat exploits (except fighter types), but it moved the game much more into killing for xp. IME 3E and 4E were almost entirely about killing for advancement, with maybe some quest or role-playing xp thrown in for variety.

5E has done a good job by having several options available, allowing people to use whatever works for them. I've reduced monster xp by half in my game, and have added in xp for various social and exploration challenges, as well as quest xp. This encourages the players to find non-combat options when possible, since the risk/reward ratio is higher.
 

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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
I don't know if all American based RPGs could be considered Ameri-trash. I'm American and published the Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror (PFRPG), and large parts of the adventures we've published, while certainly had combat and killing as a part, many adventures are more solving murder mysteries or laying ghosts to rest and not purely murder-hoboing. But I guess that might be anecdotal, compared to the larger D&D-esque murder hobo concept. I guess when I write adventures I intentionally try to create more plot and PC activities that are more than just killing things. I enjoy adding twists of plot and concept, then just killing the bad guy.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
One thing I would however like is more guidance or recommendations about experience for noncombat encounters or combat avoided. If something is guarded by X creatures and the party can still get to it without a fight, I think experience is still warranted.

Of course Gygax had ONE solution which is no longer popular. Get that gold!
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I've always thought Call of Cthulhu's advancement system was one of the most elegant systems in gaming because it simulates so many intuitive ideas about how people get better at doing something.

In terms of the tension between being heroic and killing things, I often find that at some level this idea can be taken too far the other way as well. A famous example would be Batman's relationship with the Joker, where the fact that Batman refuses to take the life of a psychotic murderer results repeatedly in the death and suffering of hundreds or thousands of people. A moral system adopted to explain a comic book code doesn't work very well when the tropes of the setting change, but at no point does the story deeply address the philosophy of pacifism and the challenges that adopting pacifism has for remaining moral. Occasionally the story lines might address the challenge departing from pacifism raises for the hero, but it almost never makes an honest assessment of the reverse. Thus, we have on one extreme an otherwise very well done and in my opinion perhaps even thoughtful story in the 'Harry Potter' series, having some horrible fridge logic to it if you bother to ask the question of whether the young Harry Potter was right to object to the plans of his elders Remus Lupin and Sirius Black to kill the traitor Peter Pettigrew. I think that there is a reasonable objection to be made that Harry's naïve idealism didn't obtain the best possible outcome, and that perhaps Peter Pettigrew deserved to die and it would have been better for everyone to realize that. On the other end of the quality spectrum, one of the dumbest stories I have ever read, 'The Knife of Never Letting Go', had among its innumerably stupidities that the erstwhile protagonist (a thoroughly loathsome individual) refuses to kill even when doing so was necessary for self-defense of both himself and others (and yet later engages in an act of cold blooded murder).

You beat me to the point of Batman sacrificing thousands to avoid offending his morality. Granted I"m glad cool villains don't get wacked in their first appearance but damn Bats, just snap one neck!

I liked the loot for XP system in older editions though it was non very logical since you could never fight yet become the greatest warrior in the land.
 

jimmifett

Banned
Banned
Naturally, since Genesys (and ffg star wars) is the best RPG system ever made, experience points aren't tied to opponents, they are tied mostly to how long you play.
 

Heroes don't kill people, generally speaking. D&D isn't about killing. D&D is about slaying and vanquishing.

Goblins aren't people. Goblins are monsters. Slaying a goblin is like slaying a rabid wolf that will definitely kill any innocent person it comes across. If you personally vanquish a million goblins, then you have made the world a safer place for everyone - for all of the people, at least, and those are the only ones who carry moral weight.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
D&D is warfare against evil.

In real life, there are sometimes heroes in war. The soldiers who killed the Nazis and opened the concentration camps were heroes, for example. And if you were on the inside of those camps, you can be darn sure you'd have viewed those killings as heroic.

I find it odd you list superheroes, complete fiction, as the example and then talk about how people don't want realism. Superheroes are far more of a fantasy than the realism of war heroes.

The player characters are typically not living in a setting where there is a United Nations, or a Department of State, or pacifism as a common option. Orcs will not respect a peaceful mediator who will arbitrate a peace treaty where all can live in harmony. They're living in a world with actual good and evil, and if the good stand by and do nothing to protect the innocent then evil will do horrible things to those innocents and then murder them. And they're often not open to negotiation, and if they are in the moment then the odds are they will turn around and commit another atrocity the moment you turn your back on them.

I don't view "war heroes as the standard for this setting" as a "problem". The setting Superman and Spiderman and Captain America comes from is drastically different from this one, and frankly when Captain America lived in an earlier era setting he did routinely kill people. And was viewed as heroic for doing it. And it wasn't a problem.
 
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Lylandra

Adventurer
Slaying and vanquishing isn't much better than killing. And honestly, I don't like black&white moral games where there are "people" who are, by definition, evil, and free to kill. Goblins are intelligent (monstrous) humanoids capable of emotions and conscious thoughts. (Outsiders are on a different level though)

Regarding the OP, I kind of agree. Heroic characters in my definition wouldn't use lethal violence as their first go-to choice. But I'm also already beyond morally pure-white heroes like Superman. Most of our characters are complex and have flaws. There might be occasions where they lash out and use violence. They might have traumas or moral values that cause them to be judge, jury and executioner when it comes to their sensitive themes or vows.

Besides this, I believe that almost every RPG system can be houseruled to allow character advancement based on overcoming challenges, not killing foes. And to make keeping adversaries alive as easy or hard as killing them. We use such rules extensively and, in may cases, keeping enemies alive can turn out far more valuable than simply killing them all.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
In DnD, killing is so abstract that the impact of what an actual combat would be like is totally lost. I remember laughing at the idea of adding bleed damage to a weapon. What, swords don't normally cause bleeding wounds? I would even go so far as to say, that the standard game of DnD isn't even about killing, because it is so abstract and kind of weird. Even the grittiest, most violent fantasy novel wouldn't have the protagonists fighting 4-8 times in one day! DnD is like a video game where the critters just pop out of existence, leaving a treasure chest behind. These games are usually rated for kids, because the violence isn't really there.

This is the reason I smile at groups bragging about being hard-core players. It's DnD, guys. You're pretty much playing Zelda.

As for your basic premise, I am in full agreement. I'm glad there are games that are getting past the killing stuff.

But roleplaying and using dice to model other things is more realistic? If its Zelda (which is damn fun) someone else's drama is about as real as a Soap Opera. Not seeing why one would be "real" and the other silly. I do not want the true reality of war--I want to model and surpass! fictional adventures that I enjoy.

I genuinely am happy there are choices but being on a moral high horse about things that started the whole roleplaying game phenomenon strikes me as odd and maybe too serious for what many are looking for.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
D&D is warfare against evil.

In real life, there are sometimes heroes in war. The soldiers who killed the Nazis and opened the concentration camps were heroes, for example. And if you were on the inside of those camps, you can be darn sure you'd have viewed those killings as heroic.

I find it odd you list superheroes, complete fiction, as the example and then talk about how people don't want realism. Superheroes are far more of a fantasy than the realism of war heroes.

The player characters are typically not living in a setting where there is a United Nations, or a Department of State, or pacifism as a common option. Orcs will not respect a peaceful mediator who will arbitrate a peace treaty where all can live in harmony. They're living in a world with actual good and evil, and if the good stand by and do nothing to protect the innocent then evil will do horrible things to those innocents and then murder them. And they're often not open to negotiation, and if they are in the moment then the odds are they will turn around and commit another atrocity the moment you turn your back on them.

I don't view "war heroes as the standard for this setting" as a "problem". The setting Superman and Spiderman and Captain America comes from is drastically different from this one, and frankly when Captain America lived in an earlier era setting he did routinely kill people. And was viewed as heroic for doing it. And it wasn't a problem.
Right? Its like we should feel ashamed of pretending to be barbarians, warlords or rogues. I have such a separation from what makes sense in my day to day life and what I do in game that there is no tension.

I am nice to people and animals. I give to charity. But in game, feuds are settled. Supremacy is established and heads roll. Its a game. My moral compass does not perfectly guide one in a world of REAL undead and necromancers.

Are we sure killing an evil grave-defiling necromancer is bad? Or that orcs who will drink the blood of peasants are really worth worrying about (I mean other than if they will show up or not).

Sheesh.
 

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