Pathfinder 2 Preview: Downtime

It is time again for a preview of Pathfinder 2 over at the Paizo blog. Today they take a look at downtime for characters.

It is time again for a preview of Pathfinder 2 over at the Paizo blog. Today they take a look at downtime for characters.


According to the blog post, "[d][FONT=&amp]owntime mode is measured in days and gives you a chance to enact your long-term plans. You might craft items, heal up, conduct rituals, retrain some of your character options to choose other ones, or work at jobs or stage performances to make money. These are all things that take time and can't really be done in the middle of a dungeon.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]" It sounds kind of like something that already exists in most games, and without codification. "[/FONT]Of course, just like with the other modes of play, these are all things you could do previously in Pathfinder. The difference in the Playtest is that we've more clearly defined these tasks in terms of what you can complete in the number of days you commit to them. This means if the GM wants to codify how long things take, it's more obvious what the value of a day spent at a task is."

One of the things that they talk about regarding the new edition is that the game will utilize three modes of play: encounter, exploration, and downtime. Both encounter and exploration are pretty easy to understand, as they are standards of fantasy role-playing games. "When you have a day or more off, you can choose a defined downtime activity (or decide to do whatever else you want to). A few of these are general, like taking bed rest to heal more quickly or retraining your feats, skill choices, and selectable class features. Most of downtime activities, however, appear under skills and require skill checks. The ones appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook are Craft, Create Forgery, Gather Information, Practice a Trade, Stage a Performance, Subsist on the Streets, Survive in the Wild, and Treat Disease. All of these require a skill check to determine how successful you are, and a few are explained in more detail later in this blog."

Interestingly, it looks like some characters will be able to make money during downtime. "Because downtime can include a really large number of days, performing these activities long-term requires rolls only for interesting events; you can continue doing the job and earning money at a steady rate until the job is completed or your audiences run out. This means you can cover long periods of downtime quickly and embellish your activity with interesting details, rather than getting bogged down with 30 rolls for a month of downtime."

"If you're a Game Master, downtime lets you pace out your game and show the passage of time between adventures. Characters and their circumstances can change in tangible ways during their downtime. Adding color and storylines to downtime, as well as recurring characters, helps the PCs form bonds and feel they're more a part of the world around them. It also means that PCs with long-term goals have a clear way of attaining them, with a clearer structure than the game had before. Less guesswork for you, and immense expandability!"

Like with some of the previous previews, Paizo really isn't giving us enough to extrapolate anything meaningful about what the rules of downtime will really do, but it does give us plenty to speculate about in the meantime. It is only a couple of months until the Pathfinder 2​ playtest document will come out.
 

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Zarithar

Adventurer
This is sounding more and more like 5e every day. Someone please remind me who the intended audience is and what differentiates this in any significant way from what is already out there. So if PF was 3.75, then this is... 5.1? I'm just not understanding the appeal.
 

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Ghal Maraz

Adventurer
Because it's not really sounding like a particularly egregious 5th edition variation at all.

I mean, yes, they're both iterations of the same game, but, apart from terminology, the implementation is quite different (again, for two different engines working on the same conceptual space of "d20 resolution mechanic - six basic characteristics - hit dice - hit points - armour class - race/class combinations PCs - level - based advancement").
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
This is sounding more and more like 5e every day. Someone please remind me who the intended audience is and what differentiates this in any significant way from what is already out there. So if PF was 3.75, then this is... 5.1? I'm just not understanding the appeal.

It's really not very much like 5e at all. The target audience is people who want a system that isn't weighed down by all the cruft of 3e D&D, but offers more crunch and player options than 5e.
 

Downtime has always been part of D&D since 1e. For example, ‘spell research’ requires downtime.

Pretty much. The only thing new about "downtime" is calling it downtime. From the beginning games have had activities which took place between adventures due to the time required.

The codification of activities you can do is more detailed, and I'm not sure that is all for the best. I can see some PC wanting to do something not covered in their no double detailed list and being told it isn't possible :)
 

Pretty much. The only thing new about "downtime" is calling it downtime. From the beginning games have had activities which took place between adventures due to the time required.

The codification of activities you can do is more detailed, and I'm not sure that is all for the best. I can see some PC wanting to do something not covered in their no double detailed list and being told it isn't possible :)

Now this reminds me of 4th Edition. Half the point of that was to qualify things that were intangible in previous editions; and lots of people hated that...
 

Banesfinger

Explorer
Not really, no. I mean, partially, but even with healing surges...clip....

While you are probably correct with the math revolving around encounter pacing Charlaquin, I think the true problem with the/any system is the "15-minute working day". In my experience, players will always use this "loophole" to their advantage. If the game allows you to be fully refreshed after each encounter, for only the price of 1 day's iron rations, why not? The only (meta-game) way to curve this is to have everything refresh each encounter (spells, heals, HPs, etc).

I believe this will also be a problem with any Downtime (back to the original post) activities. Unless there is a campaign 'ticking clock', there will be nothing stopping most players from taking months (years?) off to learn languages, create weapons, recruit henchmen, etc.

"Time" should not be considered a "limited resource" for rpgs.
 

Lord_Blacksteel

Adventurer
It's amazing that people writing or commenting about a Pathfinder announcement seem to have little knowledge of the game. "Ultimate Campaign" came out in 2013 so it's been a published Pathfinder thing for 5 years now. It's 50+ pages of systems on how to make money or build things or accomplish goals outside of the usual turns/rounds type structure. It comes up a lot in Kingmaker campaigns that I see and it's included in some parts of the Wrath of the Righteous AP along with the mass combat system too.

There are certainly ways to exploit it and there are some loose ends that have been discussed online but it's an interesting set of options if you want to give your players some concrete ways to do things outside of straight-up dungeoneering or plot-following. As far as "how would this work in play?" - well, it's been working for some groups for years now.

I expect it's been popular enough that Paizo is building it in to the core game to give them a framework to hang some additional options on as the game expands. Remember that Pathfinder's approach is to give people rules for whatever they might want to do in the game, not say "let the DM figure it out". Not saying it's right or wrong but it is going to have more crunch than some other systems. I assume that a revised version of what's out there now will be an improvement in most ways. They've certainly had enough feedback and discussion on it to know where the weaknesses are. The 2E playtest will give them another round of feedback so I would bet that it's pretty solid by the time it gets to a final PF2E form.
 

Banesfinger

Explorer
Not to derail this thread, but the recent Kickstarter for "Strongholds & Streaming" (by Matt Colville, for D&D5e) seems to be a pretty neat and streamlined way of dealing with "downtime". Obviously others think so as well, since the Kickstarter was backed for $2.1 MILLION dollars (Austin Powers air quotes)!
With that kind of success, I would think many game designers/companies should be taking a peek....
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
While you are probably correct with the math revolving around encounter pacing Charlaquin, I think the true problem with the/any system is the "15-minute working day". In my experience, players will always use this "loophole" to their advantage. If the game allows you to be fully refreshed after each encounter, for only the price of 1 day's iron rations, why not?
Time-sensitive pressures. Yeah, if you design your adventures such that your players have the luxury of taking as much time as they please to accomplish their goals, of course they're going to take advantage of that and take the time - however much it may be - to fully refresh after each encounter. So don't design adventures that way. Use ticking clocks. Have wandering monsters refill dungeon rooms that had previously been cleared. Have the adventure take place far enough from civilization that running out of rations is a serious concern. The 5-minute work day is only a problem if you allow it to be.

I believe this will also be a problem with any Downtime (back to the original post) activities. Unless there is a campaign 'ticking clock', there will be nothing stopping most players from taking months (years?) off to learn languages, create weapons, recruit henchmen, etc.
Easy solution: introduce a daily cost of living. Sure, you can absolutely take a year off adventuring to make that super awesome sword you want. But that's time you're not spending looting dungeons, so you're going to be draining your coffers the whole time. Not only on the cost of materials for your crafting, but also on food, drink, and lodging, not to mention any amenities or comforts you might want to indulge in. Eventually, you're going to need to go back to "uptime" to replenish your gold reserves.

"Time" should not be considered a "limited resource" for rpgs.
Not per se, but it's easy to associate other costs and consequences with time.
 

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