Dice Action Camera players in sex scandal!

Scott Graves said:

I think you are wandering into the political here because not everyone is going to agree with you on your points and I think personally that the internet is magnifying problems well out of proportion to reality. Your post is a fine example of how that happens.

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Just because people disagree with someone doesn't mean they've wandered into the political. This is a moral issue, not a political one.

tglassy said:

Sure. Except that then, there was the deterrent of being ostracized by society if you were caught. If it happened, which of course it did, it was kept private. Once it is legitimized, it becomes rampant. Like I said, a flourishing porn industry, rampant STD's, broken homes left and right, 1.5 million abortions a year. These things wouldn't go away, but they would be minimized to a fraction of their current levels. Simply making it ok to sleep with whoever you want to, because "well, people will just do it in secret" is a horrible solution.

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Unfortunately your ideal has never really existed even before the 1960's, it was swept under the carpet so to speak. See the various church scandals as well. Women had the crap beaten out of them and worse. If she was lucky her brother or father might beat up her husband for her if she got hit and without social welfare she would be trapped in the marriage financially.

Still might have gone to far with various things and general lack of responsibility in our cultures, they may have thrown the baby out with the bath water. Shrugs, been in a monogamous relationship since I was 22, she was 18 and that was 18 years ago.

tglassy said:

Just because people disagree with someone doesn't mean they've wandered into the political. This is a moral issue, not a political one.

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You bring up the "metoo" movement and make it out to be a positive thing. That's getting political because it has become a political tool used by one side of the political spectrum that shall go unnamed for now. I will go no further because I've already been tagged by mods for taking things to places they aren't supposed to go.

Holy when did this thread turn into an Evangelical sermon?

bunch of people I don't care to name said:

bunch of stuff I don't care to quote

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You guys advocate for that, and it sounds like a nice ideal pn that, but it's just a pipe dream, and in the process of chasing that dream all you're really advocating for is the restriction of personal rights and liberties. Like, move over Harmonium, there's a new Lawful Neutral tyrant in town.

Scott Graves said:

You bring up the "metoo" movement and make it out to be a positive thing. That's getting political because it has become a political tool used by one side of the political spectrum that shall go unnamed for now. I will go no further because I've already been tagged by mods for taking things to places they aren't supposed to go.

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Generally when you're in teouble for doing a thing, lampshading how you're not supposed to do the thing isn't that much better than actually doing the thing.

But now that you've mentioned it, it's a crying shame that a movement that gives the undertrodden and abused a solis footing to stand on and a shelter to air their grievences against the fat cats that would crush them with their connections and resources is being derided as "political", as if "political" means "abominable". Not a good look for you.

Well, there goes the thread...

TheSword said:

You believe some of the girls are underage because of what you have read in Twitter. You don’t know the details and the stories linked above don’t reveal them. They are filled with a few thousand people presenting their opinions as fact. Do you know for a fact the person didn’t claim to be 18 or 21 in earlier conversation. Do you know for fact that images were unsolicited? Because someone thought it would be a good idea to post these on twitter, anyone with google has access to them. If you did the research then we’ll done. The post and links above haven’t demonstrated that.
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Let me try this again because it appears you keep missing it. This isn't people on twitter just presenting opinions. I've mentioned several times how several women have posted screen shots of the interactions. If you bothered to actually go see any of those feeds (and reddit and elsewhere), what you'll clearly see is many women saying, "OMG, that happened to me too! He did the same thing!" And then many others actually post screen shots. I know some of those women were underage because I find that more plausible than them lying about their online age all these years just in case some guy sent them pics, so they could bust him later...

This isn't a "he said, she said" thing. This is many people coming forward, and many of those providing evidence.

I said your post is part of the problem because it is. It's why things like the #metoo movement even came about, because you're entire argument relies on the fact that these women are probably lying, or mistaken, or otherwise untrustworthy. Even setting aside all of the physical evidence of what happened, that's a pretty crappy thing to do, to assume all of these women are lying. It doesn't matter if there was no crime committed (well, it does, but even putting that aside for a moment), the mere fact that he was constantly harassing people in a repugnant way is enough. That was the whole point behind #metoo. "It happened to me too." Behavior like his happens way too often, and it will keep happening as long as there are people (ironically almost always men) who say "Well, I didn't see anything personally/people are just prudes these days, so let's not talk about it at all and never hold the harasser responsible."

tglassy said:

Do not commit adultery, or do not sleep with someone you are not married to, is an old rule many believe to be prudish and outdated. Since the sixties, we have worked very hard to make this rule out to have no place in modern times, that people should be allowed to sleep with whoever they want as long as it’s consensual. But imagine, if you will, what would happen if every person took this one rule to heart.

There would be no STDs. No fatherless children or single mothers, except by death of the father. No heartbreak from infidelity. No broken homes due to infidelity. No sexual harassment cases. No need for a MeToo movement. No men of power taking advantage of those under their power for sexual favors. No sex scandals. No rape. More equality for women. 80% fewer abortions, as only 20% of abortions are from married women. No porn industry, which promotes the objectification and enslavement of women for the pleasure of others.
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This is...wholly factually incorrect. You seem to think that things like harassment are only sexual intercourse. STDs can be transmitted in other ways outside of sex. Leering at women, or putting your hand on their shoulder while leaning over them, or inappropriate (not always sexual) comments are all examples of harassment, and none of those would go away even in your ideal world where no one had sex unless they were married. Your comment also implies that once married, you are married forever and can never divorce. Additionally, infidelity isn't always sexual in nature. Emotional cheating is a thing, and happens a lot and has the same impacts as sexual cheating. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, but you post illustrates part of the problem as well. Your idea infers that all these bad things like harassment is only applicable for the really big stuff, like sexual intercourse, when clearly that's not the actual case. It's the "well, why are they (victims) complaining, that's no big deal. It's not like they were raped or cheated on?"

The point a lot of people (again, seems like mostly men) can't seem to grasp is that it doesn't matter if you meant nothing wrong by it, or that you don't see the harm in a brief touch, or comment, or staredown as she walks by. If it's unwanted and not asked for, don't do it. It's harassment.

Scott Graves said:

You bring up the "metoo" movement and make it out to be a positive thing. That's getting political because it has become a political tool used by one side of the political spectrum that shall go unnamed for now. I will go no further because I've already been tagged by mods for taking things to places they aren't supposed to go.

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The #metoo movement is entirely about illustrating how rampant sexual harassment/assault is by having victims come forward, to bring awareness of it, and to try to stop it. That is a positive thing, right? I mean, can't we all agree that stopping sexual assault is a good thing? This shouldn't be political, as everyone, regardless of political persuasion, should agree that harassment and assault are bad. The fact that it's only been supported by one political side speaks volumes about the other, I'd think.

tglassy said:

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the first point, as while the divorce rate has been going down, it's still between 40% and 50%. Marriage should always be carefully considered. I think this is why, in times past, a girl's parents had more say in who she married. it wasn't because the parents, usually the father, wanted something out of it, it was because they didn't trust a teenager to know who would be able to take care of her, and they wanted to make sure she was with someone who would treat her right. Sure, you had the fathers who married their daughters off for their own gain, but that wasn't the reason for the practice and outside royalty or politics, wasn't usually done.

As for the second point, that's true, but again marriage needs to be a choice that was well thought out and considered for all the ramifications. You are binding yourself to another person, at least legally if you don't believe spiritually. That shouldn't be something you just end because you can't get along. If you're not willing to change and adapt to this other person, or the thought of "well, i could just divorce them if I don't like them in ten years" is crossing your mind as you're saying your vows, then maybe marriage isn't for you, at least not at this time. You should know who you're marrying, and divorce should be reserved for true cases of abuse or neglect. (I don't believe anyone, male or female, should ever stay in an abusive relationship, just for clarification).

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The problem with the combination of "no sex outside of wedlock" and "divorce is extremely difficult and frowned upon" is that most 16-22 year olds (the primary marriageable age in my grandparents' era) are going to take the "OK, let's bonk now!" option over consideration of the long term consequences. That's what teenagers from the dawn of time have done!

Also, add on to the fact that the rising divorce rate was primarily driven by the economic emancipation of women. A lot of people back then "worked it out" because they had no feasible way to support themselves if they did.

I'm not going to sit and fisk the rest of your arguments; you have a fairly obvious emotional connection to your stance which data driven arguments rarely refute (and I've tried enough over the years to know it doesn't work). I wish you the best in correcting societal immorality, one ENWorld post at a time.

Sacrosanct said:

Let me try this again because it appears you keep missing it. This isn't people on twitter just presenting opinions. I've mentioned several times how several women have posted screen shots of the interactions. If you bothered to actually go see any of those feeds (and reddit and elsewhere), what you'll clearly see is many women saying, "OMG, that happened to me too! He did the same thing!" And then many others actually post screen shots. I know some of those women were underage because I find that more plausible than them lying about their online age all these years just in case some guy sent them pics, so they could bust him later...

This isn't a "he said, she said" thing. This is many people coming forward, and many of those providing evidence.

I said your post is part of the problem because it is. It's why things like the #metoo movement even came about, because you're entire argument relies on the fact that these women are probably lying, or mistaken, or otherwise untrustworthy. Even setting aside all of the physical evidence of what happened, that's a pretty crappy thing to do, to assume all of these women are lying. It doesn't matter if there was no crime committed (well, it does, but even putting that aside for a moment), the mere fact that he was constantly harassing people in a repugnant way is enough. That was the whole point behind #metoo. "It happened to me too." Behavior like his happens way too often, and it will keep happening as long as there are people (ironically almost always men) who say "Well, I didn't see anything personally/people are just prudes these days, so let's not talk about it at all and never hold the harasser responsible."



This is...wholly factually incorrect. You seem to think that things like harassment are only sexual intercourse. STDs can be transmitted in other ways outside of sex. Leering at women, or putting your hand on their shoulder while leaning over them, or inappropriate (not always sexual) comments are all examples of harassment, and none of those would go away even in your ideal world where no one had sex unless they were married. Your comment also implies that once married, you are married forever and can never divorce. Additionally, infidelity isn't always sexual in nature. Emotional cheating is a thing, and happens a lot and has the same impacts as sexual cheating. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, but you post illustrates part of the problem as well. Your idea infers that all these bad things like harassment is only applicable for the really big stuff, like sexual intercourse, when clearly that's not the actual case. It's the "well, why are they (victims) complaining, that's no big deal. It's not like they were raped or cheated on?"

The point a lot of people (again, seems like mostly men) can't seem to grasp is that it doesn't matter if you meant nothing wrong by it, or that you don't see the harm in a brief touch, or comment, or staredown as she walks by. If it's unwanted and not asked for, don't do it. It's harassment.

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I was trying not to bring anything religious into it because of site rules, but the Bible further clarifies “adultery” as not just intercourse, but everything up to and including even as simple an act as lusting after a woman, with no actions taken, so when I say that one rule, do not commit adultery, would lead to those things, all those other things you mentioned, the unwanted touching and harassment in every way, were included. Again, just for context.

I, for one, embrace the nascent sexual counter-revolution. History cycles on these things, and it is good that justice for victims of perverts is a priority now.