D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

Flamestrike said:

Instead im saying 'Not interested in listening to you anymore because you're acting like a t**t'

And thats on you.

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No, sorry, but use of such derogatory terms is on you.

Let's make it perfectly clear, folks: that kind of language is not acceptable on these boards. Using it is a good way to get a moderator in your face with no patience whatsoever for any excuse you may try to offer.

We expect you to show each other a modicum of respect. If you can't manage that, then we ask you to not post, and save everyone, including yourself, the grief. Keep it civil, and keep it clean, folks.

Umbran said:

No, sorry, but use of such derogatory terms is on you.

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I'll wear it, and my apologies to you for getting dragged in to this.

The term may be unacceptable (and I apologise for that and for letting myself get baited), but I stand by the sentiments expressed (in that I viewed his contant obstructionism as obnoxious behaviour).

That said, point taken; I wont rise to the bait again.

Great wrap up, Flamestrike!

One thing I was considering throughout the adventure, is, being linear in story, there are no side treks, or distractions.
Bringing up the '6-8' possibility adding a random encounter en route to the mountain, and a possible extra room or two once inside tye demi plane would help.

Not knocking the write up as it is, just a suggestion to the DMs running it if things are not chalkenging enough for the party running it.

Flamestrike said:

Re: the Shadow demons, I'm not seeing it. The PC's can simply ready actions to [attack/ cast a a spell] triggered to occur when the Demons emerge from hiding [or the floor].

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Taking 1d10 damage no matter what is certainly going to add up, but I still think it would be worthwhile. Readying an attack will eliminate a great many benefits that martial characters get (uses action + reaction, no extra attacks, barbarian can't Reckless Attack, fighter loses its second extra attack, monk can't FoB) and seriously hampers spellcasters (must concentrate on readied spell, spell lost if not used or concentration broken before used).

Even if there's only a single fighter, going from 3x 1d8+5 (28) damage from the Attack Action with two Extra Attacks using a longsword down to 1d10+1d8+5 (15) damage is a MASSIVE decrease in damage taken, with the additional benefits of screwing with the party's action economy and providing a way to escape if the party ends up being too strong. For each extra member of the party the benefits of hiding in the walls increases. It also limits the party's ability to focus fire on the shadow demons, preventing them from losing combat effectiveness as the fight goes on. Lastly, if we consider a demon hidden in the shadows, then we must realize that it will become immediately visible as soon as a character carrying a light source gets close enough to it for the demon to be in bright light (20 feet for Light or a torch). This will entirely eliminate the chance for surprise AoO from running by a hidden demon, and expose the demon to the focused might of the entire party.

Since the shadow demons are hasted, they have a fly speed of 60 ft, cut in half from moving through walls. If there is another room within 30 feet that is out of LoS of the party then they can entirely ignore the 1d10 damage from ending in an object. I'm not sure how dense the complex is, but it's not unreasonable for there to be somewhere nearby. If there is a floor below or above then this becomes trivial


I think that trying to hide in the shadows would be the first plan that they would use, but after they are found despite hiding (either from bright light, truesight, or high perception) it seems reasonable that they would use their incorporeal nature despite its minor downside.


My own opinion on the most effective way to fight Shadow Demons is to exploit their Light Sensitivity (not sunlight sensitivity). Someone casts Light, everyone grabs a torch, and now the Shadow Demons are all attacking at disadvantage (less likely to hit AND incapable of dealing their boosted damage from attacking with adv.) and unable to hide while near the party. They will be visible to PCs with darkvision while within areas of dim light, making them immediately visible. They will also be visible if they rise from the floor into an area of bright light.

I'm not sure what the party's goal is, but I assume it is to get past the room somehow. I basing this on the complete lack of benefit to actually destroying the demons and the fact that it is explicitly stated that they will not pursue the party out of the room. If the party is aware of this goal going into the fight, then this encounter is actually simplified if the demons try to hide in the floor or Hide in the shadows. Skirmishing types who rely on avoiding detection as a defense tend not to make the best barriers to party progression unless there is risk of being flanked if the enemies are not eliminated. Of course, it's perfectly fine to let the players assume that the demons need to be destroyed by being ambiguous with the encounter goals (not my preference, but it can be used effectively), but then we're back into trying to optimize for victory, and that still means not being exposed off-turn.



I want to note that I am not replying because I think your design is bad. I am replying because I am interested in your experiment and its result, and because I wanted to present an alternative perspective along with the reasoning behind it. I personally think that making incorporeal creatures perfectly safe between turns vastly increases their strength, and that it should increase their CR dramatically when used in that way. However, since you are trying to drain party resources as much as possible, and because it can increase their effectiveness, I felt it contributed to the thread to present it as an alternative tactic.

Edit: It just occurred to me that not being able to see the map and not knowing the party's goal make it so that I cannot guess what purpose the shadow demons are supposed to serve. If, for example, environmental effects make it harder for the party to produce light (I've used this in a game before), or if the demons' goal is to inflict as much damage as possible before being destroyed, then my proposed tactics are almost certainly not a good match for the encounter.

Radaceus said:

Great wrap up, Flamestrike!

One thing I was considering throughout the adventure, is, being linear in story, there are no side treks, or distractions.
Bringing up the '6-8' possibility adding a random encounter en route to the mountain, and a possible extra room or two once inside tye demi plane would help.

Not knocking the write up as it is, just a suggestion to the DMs running it if things are not chalkenging enough for the party running it.

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I generally do just this - have optional side quests tacked onto the main adventure. A favorite is the 'long forgotten secret door that leads to a powerful monster and some cool treasure' or a little mini dungeon on the way to the main adventure locale (PCs pass by a number of mounds that are in fact barrows - they notice one is open...). If I have time during the week I'd also throw maybe a hook or two in the dungeon for another quest. A map leading to a long lost tomb, a captured NPC that offers to reward the PCs after the adventure - and also asks them for a favor or similar).

And thanks for the kudos mate. The whole thing started with a quick 15 minute brainstorm of the adventure theme and ideas, which led to the hooks and the rest meta, followed by a quick list of 7 groups of monsters [this took me about half an hour of deliberation]. I then made some quick notes about why they were in the dungeon and what they were doing. Generally I would draw the map and then leave it there, but I took it a step further and padded it out a bit to more detail than I would normally have in my notes.

The lair of Blackrazor.

While many assume that Blackrazor is a magical sword, the reality is far different. It is actually a hole in reality – an extra planar rift – that houses a force of entropy so powerful that it is capable of annihilating whole planes. When the adventurers who raided Keraptis lair found blackrazor they placed it in a recently discovered bag of holding for safe keeping.

Unfortunately all was not as it seemed. The bag of holding was in fact a bag of devouring – and the magical resonance of the two potent forces of entropy occupying the same extra dimensional space at once broke the bonds that trapped blackrazor in its weapon form. A great and terrible evil was released into the world, and a hole was torn into reality. If blackrazor is not stopped, and the hole is not sealed, the entire multiverse is in peril.

In this room lurks the avatar of blackrazor – the greatest of the atropals and a force for entropy and the annihilation of the multiverse.

Use the stats for an Adult green dragon with the Shadow template. Increase its CR to 18 to account for this template. His lair actions take the form of grasping tendrils of shadow or billowing clouds of darkness. Like the rest of the demiplane the room is cast in a permanent magical dim light. Blackrazor currently sits atop a pyramid in the rear of this large [300' x 300'] room hidden (Perception DC 26 to detect thanks to the dim light, and the shadow template) 150’ away from the entrance and likely outside the range of the PCs vision. With his blindsight, darkvision and +12 perception he surveys the room. If he detects any intruders he waits till they have all entered the room and a PC moves more than 25 feet inside of it, and uses a lair action to trap the PCs in the room and monologue a bit. He then flies 80’ overhead breathing on them to catch as many as he can in one blast. He surveys the effect of his breath and either hides as a bonus action on his turn, or prepares to close to melee range against a weakened PC (to make use of his legendary melee attacks).

On turn two he uses another lair action to again trap the PCs for at least one turn and either breathes again (if available) or melees a weakened PC as described above. He breathes as soon as it recharges hoping to catch as many PCs as possible in the blast. If reduced to less than half his hit points, he forgoes using hit and run tactics and closes to melee, blocking the exit if at all possible.

XP to award 20,000 adjusted XP = 20,000 (Hard).

If the PCs are having an easy time of it, throw some shadows at them as well.

Rewards: On top of the pyramid lies the (now completely clear, as if made of transparent glass) greatsword formerly known as blackrazor. Devoid of the entropic spirit that once resided within, it is now little more than a hole in space, infinitely thin on its edge, and sharper than any other sword in existence. It is a vorpal greatsword, and blackrazor is not immune to its decapitation power. If blackrazor is decapitated by this weapon its life force is sucked back into the sword and this sword becomes blackrazor as per the DMG.

Development: Once blackrazor is defeated the PCs are free to explore, finding the sword if they haven’t already. Once blackrazor is defeated and a PC holds the vorpal sword, the dimensional rift expels all of its occupants out into their respective planes, and then closes for good.

Flamestrike said:

The lair of Blackrazor.

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I'm quite glad my lot ran away to Ravenloft.

Someone else's party should definitely go in first. I'll wait outside until what's left of them comes out, then kill them and take their stuff, go back to town and claim the reward.

See, I can optimize too ...

I will post my results just a bit hectic atm new babey new job I got the encounter notes for the slaads (was super easy) hoping to run another couple tomorrow

Encounter 3 4a and 4 whent smooth as butter. Will get a write up done later today I promise

We made it to 7-8 encounters in an adventuring day today. DM threw winter wolves, Orcs, young remoraz, animals etc at us with a young white Dragon as the last encounter (5th level PCs).

We were low on spells by the end but my Monk was a short rest class and I managed to stun the Dragon.

Then later on we fought a Remoraz (level 5 vs CR 11) as a boss fight type encounter. Things were looking bleak but the Monk managed to stun it and it died to barbarian beat down, arrow and sacred flames (auto fail stunned, 2 clerics).

So anywhere between 7-8 encounters down to 1 encounter in todays session. We never know how many we get though and some days are very easy as we might only have 2-3 encounters but we do not nova off as the level 3 spells are being saved.