D&D 5E Building a better Fighter

Interesting. A Warlock at level 17 running Hex and Foresight continually does 49.14 round with EB+AB under these conditions, or 1474.2. At level 11 (no Foresight :) ), 819.
Well, scaling cantrips are easily my least favorite thing about 5e, Eldritch Blast being the worst offender for obvious reasons.

If they have to scale at all, it should be only once at Lv. 11.
 

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Ovarwa

Explorer
Hi,

Well, scaling cantrips are easily my least favorite thing about 5e, Eldritch Blast being the worst offender for obvious reasons.

If they have to scale at all, it should be only once at Lv. 11.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the Warlock was especially good or bad, right or wrong, just another point of reference.

FWIW, Fighter sharpshooter crossbow archery style under these conditions does 1110 damage at level 12, before Action Surge or any subclass effects, which is quite a bit better than the warlock, as it should be.

Anyway,

Ken
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
While you are correct, the Paladin would most likely use lower level spell slots on low hp creatures and higher level spell slots on high hp creatures. So in the end I think it about evens out in regards to excess damage, maybe with a slight nod to the Fighter.

No. The Paladin WILL use his Smite when he rolls a crit to get double damage on the Smite dice since he can use it after he knows he got a crit. Crits for a Paladin are greatly magnified because of this, and he won't waste any excess damage if played smartly but can spike huge amounts of damage.

Champion should get more crit and better crits, have them add another die at certain levels.


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cheeseguy

First Post
The Fighter is, and kind of has been since 2e-ish, a catch 22.

They are the character with the least amount of "built-in flavor"...They are the class that fights. It's what they do. They're the best at it.

Sword and shield? Mounted knight in shining armor (when you didn't want the "holy baggage" of the paladin)? Throwing axes in studded leather woodsman (when you didn't want the "Aragorn-baggage" of a ranger)? Chain wearing battle-axe wielding madman? Swashbuckler/buccaneer/pirate? Cavalier/chevalier/knight (before and even after there was a Cavalier)? Mercenary/solider/guardsman? Amazon/Valkyrie...Xena? Samurai? WWF-inspired wrestler/brawler? Kid with a borrowed (or stolen) sword who'd never left the farm before? Hercules and Perseus. Conan and Lancelot. Blackbeard and Gilgamesh.

The Fighter was, purposefully, left to handle all of these (and many more) archetypes. And, through the majority of the editions (and iterations of fantasy TTRPG clones), this is what they have been. The Fighter has been a class of its mechanics devoid of any true single core "identity" of flavor and story to fall back upon.

5e is no different. They built the Fighter and their subclasses around mechanics, not story. The "simple" fighter. The "slightly more complex/mechanically interesting" fighter. And the "slightly more complex than that because it involves magic (spell progression, spells known, and all that)" fighter.

Is an Eldritch Knight a literal "knight" in plate mail that belongs to a sanctioned (or unsanctioned) order of arcane adepts? Is it just an elfin warrior-mage trained in the skills of both because that's what elves (or elves of a certain social standing) can do? Is it a tribal warrior who has learned just enough of this shaman's teachings to generate magical effects to assist his fighting? Or Elric of Melnibone mixing innate ancestral magical ability with swordplay to conquer the known world?

The answer is "Yes." It is all of those things. On purpose. By design. As is the Battlemaster. As is the Champion. The fighter is the class in which you get to make the MOST story for your character, because other than "the Fighter fights [with weapons]" the class is given (and has) no single story of its own.

So, you come to the issue of, "The Fighter has no identity. It doesn't have any interesting/fun mechanics like paladins or druids or warlocks get. It's just boring."

When, at its core, the Fighter's "lack" of identity IS its identity.

The Fighter fights. That is the extent of their story and, simultaneously, the root mechanical framework upon which you can paint your greatest heroes and villains as you see fit.

If the Fighter "needs" anything, and I do not ascribe that it does, it would be a "fully/very complex" subclass option, with multiple moving parts and player choice options (a la a warlock), that are not "magic" upon which people that prefer a "later editions style of play" can have their "superheroic -but its not with magic- warrior." That would fill the Fighter class, as far as subclass options. Simple. Simple +1 special mechanic. Simple +Magic. Simple +2 (or more) special mechanics (a.k.a. "Not Simple").

It is a curiosity, that of all of the classes that have been developed over the years, all of the nooks and crannies of mythologies and legends and histories and cultures from which D&D has drawn PC classes...the Fighter, a warrior guy who can swing a sword, still is just the tabula rasa class that you can style however you like. No other class has this distinction.

Starting, arguably, from the Magic-user or at least from the original Thief/Rogue concept on down, every class that had come after, the built-in fluff/story of a class have become more and more specific and narrow. Some open up and some narrow further, here and there, from edition to edition. But always, there is some degree of an assumed (and generally accepted) backstory to go along with the class.
Like what ya saying, it's the job of the player to give him the story and why he chose that path. He's the all around go to guy can do every thing but isn't great at everything. Pirate, gladiator, Knight, woodsman, farm kid, all can be fighters. The story comes from the player

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Xeviat

Hero
Like what ya saying, it's the job of the player to give him the story and why he chose that path. He's the all around go to guy can do every thing but isn't great at everything. Pirate, gladiator, Knight, woodsman, farm kid, all can be fighters. The story comes from the player

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I don't have a problem with the Fighter being a broad class. But I believe the Fighter should have be same amount of ribbons and flavor as the other class. "Warrior" is a role, just like the other more specified/specialized classes. If the Fighter Archetypes had been better designed, I think that flavor could have come through. Instead, both the Champion and the Battle Master are trying to be everything for everybody.

They aren't missing much. They just need something to help them interact with the world when they aren't trying to kill something.


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I don't have a problem with the Fighter being a broad class. But I believe the Fighter should have be same amount of ribbons and flavor as the other class. "Warrior" is a role, just like the other more specified/specialized classes. If the Fighter Archetypes had been better designed, I think that flavor could have come through. Instead, both the Champion and the Battle Master are trying to be everything for everybody.
That's their point. Flavouring them to one concept would have limited their potential to fit other concepts.
I think that maybe they just aren't designed with the aims that you would have preferred rather than being badly designed.

They aren't missing much. They just need something to help them interact with the world when they aren't trying to kill something.
Give them another bonus feat or two, but limit them to non-combat feats. That should be suitably flexible to fit any concept - particularly if you allow the use of UA feats. It should also prevent the "I spent all my feats on boosting my combat capabilities and now I can't do anything outside combat!" complaints issue
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I think that maybe they just aren't designed with the aims that you would have preferred rather than being badly designed.
What if they were designed with the aim of being badly designed. Wouldn't they be well designed for meeting their goal? But they'd've failed...
;P

Seriously, though...

Give them another bonus feat or two, but limit them to non-combat feats. That should be suitably flexible to fit any concept - particularly if you allow the use of UA feats. It should also prevent the "I spent all my feats on boosting my combat capabilities and now I can't do anything outside combat!" complaints issue
Actual bonus feats, rather than ASIs, coming a little earlier might be good. The 3e fighter got a bonus feat at 1st level, and another at 2nd. Waiting until 6th, and getting your 2nd-priority ASI 2 levels early really isn't a huge 'wow.' But, if you got a feat (not ASI) at 2nd or 3rd, which you reach very quickly, that'd be something.

Of course then you'd hear "I'm a fighter I should be able to spend my feat on being best at fighting." And, they wouldn't be wrong. So, maybe, bonus feat early, obligatory non-combat feat at 6th or 10th or whatever?
Or, just, y'know, more non-combat stuff, period - wouldn't exactly break the class.
 

Xeviat

Hero
That's their point. Flavouring them to one concept would have limited their potential to fit other concepts.
I think that maybe they just aren't designed with the aims that you would have preferred rather than being badly designed.

Give them another bonus feat or two, but limit them to non-combat feats. That should be suitably flexible to fit any concept - particularly if you allow the use of UA feats. It should also prevent the "I spent all my feats on boosting my combat capabilities and now I can't do anything outside combat!" complaints issue

The trouble is that bonus feats would still be more of what everyone else gets. Part of the complaint about fighters is that they get nothing unique.

I have always thought that Fighters should get some kind of social bonus with normal people. All of the other classes have prejudices attached to them if you relax your thinking. Fighters are normal people. Normal people can understand them. Barbarians are lunatic killers. Bards and rogues are thieves, cheats, or worse. Clerics are beholden to their god, not us, and Druids aren't even part of our towns. Monks are mysterious, Paladins think they're better than us, Rangers are one of them Rangers, and don't get me started on sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards.

Whether they're a villain or a hero, you can understand Fighters.

Or just a useful ribbon for each subclass. Remarkable Athlete is almost there.


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cheeseguy

First Post
I don't have a problem with the Fighter being a broad class. But I believe the Fighter should have be same amount of ribbons and flavor as the other class. "Warrior" is a role, just like the other more specified/specialized classes. If the Fighter Archetypes had been better designed, I think that flavor could have come through. Instead, both the Champion and the Battle Master are trying to be everything for everybody.

They aren't missing much. They just need something to help them interact with the world when they aren't trying to kill something.


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Well for those two yeah your right. Not much interaction, it's cheesy(no pun intended) but Eldritch Knight is perfect for that. As for the battle/champion what suggestions do you have?

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Xeviat

Hero
Well for those two yeah your right. Not much interaction, it's cheesy(no pun intended) but Eldritch Knight is perfect for that. As for the battle/champion what suggestions do you have?

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Rebrand the Battle Master as a tactician. Take out a few of the more leadershipy options from their maneuvers, bring Wisdom or another stat in. Expand on their "evaluate foe" ability, as they can size people up. "You're bluffing, you don't have the courage", staredowns before duels, predicting ambushes.

Take the skeleton and make a Knight subclass to do the leader things. The Purple Dragon Knight is almost a good leader, but it doesn't work enough.

The Champion needs buffs to make it combatively on par with the Battle Master, and make Remarkable Athlete stack with skill proficiency so they have pseudo expertise. Rebuild them around old school weapon mastery, but give them something unique like how only the fighter could get Mastery and Above. But I'd also rather see "Champion" own its name. Make it a champion.


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