Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

hand-and-eye-of-vecna-1130095-640x320.jpg



"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

log in or register to remove this ad

E

Elderbrain

Guest
And what about Dregoth [from Dark Sun*]? Not actually a god, but that's only because godhood isn't actually possible to attain on Athas.

His 2E stats are absolutely crazy. Unfortunately, 2E didn't stat gods, so he might or might not be stronger than Vecna... but still: AC -8, 173 hit points, 20d12 breath weapon, 29th level Athasian dragon (20th-level wizard/20th-level psionicist/9th-level dragon, with "psionic enchantments" - early 2E version of epic spells).

His entry is rather confusingly written, so it's not easy to figure out how much melee damage he's actually supposed to do- probably 2d10+10/2d10+10/4d12/5d10, with the lich's 1d10 cold + paralysis touch added to at least some of them?

*Dregoth is a "kaisharga" - Dark Sun equivalent of a lich, but they can be any class. He's also undergoing the dragon transformation that Dark Sun sorcerer-kings do, which is where he gets the ridiculous melee damage and breath weapon.

2e didn't stat gods, per se, but it sure as Hades statted up plenty of Avatars, and Vecna was among them. He received stats in the Ravenloft hardcover book "Domains of Dread" - he was not at his full normal strength due to being a prisoner in the plane. He also got a write-up in "Die, Vecna, Die!" (since the PCs were supposed to fight him), and that was also a weakened version because he didn't have access to all of his powers while in Sigil. If I can dig up my copy of the books I'll post the pertinent info so you can judge how he compares with Dregoth (who was pretty darned powerful, as you state). He might have been statted at full strength elsewhere, but I don't know.

Gods vs. lichs is tricky, because depending upon edition a lich (or other non-divine being) can actually kill a god (or at least the god's Avatar). In 5e, Lesser gods apparently don't have Avatars, just one form (manifestation) which can be slain (but it is sometimes possible for a dead Lesser god to come back, or not be actually slain after all - Tiamat "dies" at the end of "Rise of Tiamat", but because she is not fully present on Toril she survives and is banished back to the Nine Hells.) A Greater god - again, by 5e rules - can't be killed in such a manner, at least not by mortals, and can form Avatar(s) that are the equivalent of Lesser gods (and which can be "killed" without destroying the actual god.) Artifacts can also change the rules - a lich with a powerful Artifact might even be able to harm/kill a Greater god (but no official ruling on this from WOTC for this edition.)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

E

Elderbrain

Guest
Still more powerful than a mortal.

Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.
 
Last edited:

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.

Sure, he lost while in a weakened form to PCs in a module in which he was supposed to be defeated.
 

Acererak's schemes have successfully spanned multiple planes (including multiple material planes). So, I think it's not a safe bet putting him in third place.
It's pretty safe. I have no idea who would win between Vecna vs Larloch, but Acererak is not even in the same ballpark when it comes to power. Don't get me wrong, Acererak is a major threat to any adventuring party and even some gods. But the other two are at least an order of magnitude stronger in raw magical might and resources.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You stated that you think Larloch is a Mary Sue. "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment." If you believe him to be perfect and an object of wish fulfillment then you must think him more powerful than Vecna, who is not.

Um, again, no. Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful. It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs. Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.

Gods are actively opposed by other gods, bound by rules, traditions, and often powerful cosmological laws. Their power is often tied directly or indirectly to their believers, making them a bit like politicians in most regards. They cannot act without setting in motion a series of cosmic checks and balances that more often than not end in divine stalemate.

None of this makes gods weaker than liches.

I would also submit that even as a greater god, Vecna failed in his mission to remake reality as he would have liked at the city of Sigil due to non-divine intervention from ordinary adventurers. He even lost a large portion of his divine power in the process. How powerful can a god be in a system where they can be defeated, de-powered, or even killed by non-divine agents?

This is bass ackwards. The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods. Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.

In order to take out a god, mortals typically have to have some special means. Whether it's an artifact, the Time of Troubles, a prophecy that gives them the ability, mistletoe in the case of Baldur, or what have you. Otherwise, they get squashed.
 

D1Tremere

Adventurer
Um, again, no. Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful. It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs. Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.

I have not seen a definition of Mary Sue that uses the word charmed. Most say directly, perfect (as I quoted). The rest heavily imply perfection. Your definition may be the problem, as it is novel.



None of this makes gods weaker than liches.

All of these are literally weaknesses or drawbacks that gods possess which mortals do not. So, by definition, these things make gods weaker than liches (in these specific ways at least). There may be other contexts in which gods are stronger than liches, but not the ones I listed.



This is bass ackwards. The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods. Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.

Funny how mortal heroes do not seem to suffer the same difficulties here, another weakness of being a god that happened to work against Vecna is what I am seeing.

In order to take out a god, mortals typically have to have some special means. Whether it's an artifact, the Time of Troubles, a prophecy that gives them the ability, mistletoe in the case of Baldur, or what have you. Otherwise, they get squashed.

Do they though? Do they just get squished? For all the supposed power of the gods they sure do have a lot of enemies running around gathering up these god killing items and thwarting their plans. Why doesn't Vecna just instakill all of his enemies if gods are so powerful? How is he ever defeated at all? Why doesn't he just destroy any object that could harm him, forbid any situation that could de-power him, and slay his enemies before they even become a threat? I submit that it is because he can't. Larloch, on the other hand, seems to have a lot less problem with all of this despite not being a god.
 


Iry

Hero
Um, again, no. Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful. It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs. Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.
Larloch can rightfully be called a Mary Sue because he has almost no flaws. At least, none that we really know of. That's one of the biggest hallmarks of being a Sue and applies to people of any power level, as you say. Of course, plenty of Mary Sues have captured the hearts of their readers - just look at Batman.

Acererak may not be able to compete with Vecna or Larloch in the power department, but I would say he has rightfully earned his achievements. He shows up places, sets up deathtrap tombs, and murders the jeebus out of curious adventurers. Then calmly sweeps up their loot and resets the mousetrap. It's a sadistic but otherwise effective business model as far as I am concerned.

If anyone deserves the title "Charmed" it would probably be Vecna. He essentially won the lottery when it comes to popularity because of his Hand and Eye, and all the shenanigans and stories that were born of that. He shows up with increasing amounts of power despite the fact that he keeps losing, and even manages to lose with the backing of The Serpent. And in spite of being the god of secrets (and gathering secrets with his Hand and Eye before that) he never does anything especially clever or brilliant. Yet he wins hearts and minds. Even mine. I love the guy.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I have not seen a definition of Mary Sue that uses the word charmed. Most say directly, perfect (as I quoted). The rest heavily imply perfection. Your definition may be the problem, as it is novel.

You're seriously arguing that Mary Sue characters are God? Because anything less than that is imperfect. Me, I get that a Mary Sue character is not perfect and means something completely different than an all powerful, all knowing, perfect being.

All of these are literally weaknesses or drawbacks that gods possess which mortals do not. So, by definition, these things make gods weaker than liches (in these specific ways at least). There may be other contexts in which gods are stronger than liches, but not the ones I listed.

You realize that you are literally arguing that if I tie one hand behind your back, a weakness that a 2 year old doesn't have, that you are weaker than a 2 year old.

The context in which gods are stronger than liches is power. They are more powerful than liches.

I submit that it is because he can't. Larloch, on the other hand, seems to have a lot less problem with all of this despite not being a god.

Because he's a Mary Sue.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top