D&D 5E The New Fighter

GX.Sigma · Mar 24, 2013

Olgar Shiverstone said:
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the actual "Expertise Dice" mechanic for martial maneuvers is an unnecessary complication and adds resource management that isn't required. I'd propose something more like this:

"Martial Maneuvers: Once per turn, when you attack, you can execute a martial maneuver that you know in conjunction with your attack."

You might get three martial maneuvers at level 1 and another one each level or every-other level. Each maneuver would allow you to do something interesting in conjunction with your attack, but would not simply be +x to attack, +y to damage, add another attack, or some other simple mechanical benefit. The maneuvers list would include general capabilities as well as weapon-specific maneuvers, and would encompass options that are on the current expertise list as well as some of the martial feats (so things like Cleave, Disarm, Push, Called Shot, etc would be on the martial maneuvers list). I'd allow some martial maneuvers to also be listed as feats to let other martial classes (barbarian, ranger, paladin, rogue) take them, but would keep a large number of the maneuvers unique to the fighter class. The fighter might still retain some bonus feats, but most of his bonuses would be built around gaining additional maneuvers. Some of the maneuvers might scale with level, have a level prerequisite, or have another maneuver as a prerequisite so you can gain effectiveness with increasing level.

No resources to manage, no recharge mechanic, just add something special to your attack because you're a fighter and that's what you do.

That's pretty much exactly what they did in this packet. They realized people didn't want to spend damage dice to do maneuvers, so they made maneuvers strictly additive. Then they opened them up so every class could take them, but the Fighter still gets more of them than anyone else. They're now called "Martial Feats."

Li Shenron · Mar 24, 2013

Klaus said:
That is basically the Essentials Fighter.

GX.Sigma said:
That's pretty much exactly what they did in this packet.

Are you two sure about this? The way I understood [MENTION=5868]Olgar Shiverstone[/MENTION] idea, is that it is rounde-based i.e. very similar to the previous MDD of 5e, and quite different from EF and 5e current packets which both work encounter-based.

GX.Sigma said:
Then they opened them up so every class could take them, but the Fighter still gets more of them than anyone else. They're now called "Martial Feats."

IMHO this is a controversial design decision. It's very similar to the 3e Fighter, everybody gets a little bit of fighter's stuff, but the fighter gets more. We all know how that idea led the fighter class to become poorly attractive on its own. Now it remains to be seen if the other stuff the 5e gets will be enough to avoid that problem, but IMHO the original round-based and fighter-only MDD + Maneuvers were surely able to guarantee to avoid that problem.

small pumpkin man · Mar 24, 2013

Salamandyr said:
OK, maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing this. I complained long and hard about 3rd edition because the fighter (among other classes) received so few skill points that he basically could not interact with any section of the rules that didn't involve pulling out a sword and killing something (and they weren't even the best at that). I largely gave up playing 3rd edition because of that.

But the Next fighter doesn't have that problem. He has access to the same pool of abilities as everyone else, in the same amount, and they progress just as fast as everyone else. The fighter can be as persuasive as any class whose focus is not persuasion, there exploration abilities are as good as any class whose focus is not exploration, and whats more, if they want to be better, they don't lose much by crossfocussing their specialization.

I don't really understand what more they would need?

EDIT: thinking about it; some classes (other than the rogue who is supposed to be a "skills user") get special training in certain task actions or skills. I think this should be universalized, so every class gives you training in one or two skills, or advantage in certain tasks, in addition to the 4 you get for your background.

The fighter could get a choice from a handful of athletic, or observation based skills.

1)Spellcasters get spells, which, while noticeably less powerful than their 3.x versions(which I like), are still extremely useful out of combat.
2)Rogues get a bunch of extra crap (although less now than before).
3)skills themselves don't scale much as you level up.

I would argue that all of the non-spellcasting classes should be getting out of combat abilities closer to what the Rogue was getting last packet, probably more, but that's pretty much the opposite of the way they appear to be going.

Falling Icicle · Mar 24, 2013

Salamandyr said:
OK, maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing this. I complained long and hard about 3rd edition because the fighter (among other classes) received so few skill points that he basically could not interact with any section of the rules that didn't involve pulling out a sword and killing something (and they weren't even the best at that). I largely gave up playing 3rd edition because of that.

But the Next fighter doesn't have that problem. He has access to the same pool of abilities as everyone else, in the same amount, and they progress just as fast as everyone else. The fighter can be as persuasive as any class whose focus is not persuasion, there exploration abilities are as good as any class whose focus is not exploration, and whats more, if they want to be better, they don't lose much by crossfocussing their specialization.

I don't really understand what more they would need?

They may be better off than they were in 3e, but that isn't saying much. Everyone gets the benefit of backgrounds now, regardless of class. The designers themselves have said that there are 3 pillars of play: combat, exploration and interaction. Some classes get abilities for all 3 pillars, while some, like fighters and barbarians, only get stuff for combat. I don't think that's acceptable. I don't expect fighters to be as good at social interaction as bards, or as good at exploration as rogues. But they should at least get something for the other two pillars of play. Being the class that does nothing but fights is just too 2-dimensional in a game that is about far more than just combat.

There are plenty of things fighters could be good at in the other two pillars that would be thematically appropriate for the class. They could have athletic abilities, feats of strength, social abilities involving leadership or intimidation, abilities that help them stand watch while the party rests, an iron will to resist fear and manipulation, and so on.

Salamandyr said:
EDIT: thinking about it; some classes (other than the rogue who is supposed to be a "skills user") get special training in certain task actions or skills. I think this should be universalized, so every class gives you training in one or two skills, or advantage in certain tasks, in addition to the 4 you get for your background.

The fighter could get a choice from a handful of athletic, or observation based skills.

That would be a good start.

Li Shenron · Mar 24, 2013

I think the Fighter has enough out-of-combat stuff, but still doesn't have that ultimate edge in combat compared to the other classes.

Szatany · Mar 24, 2013

Li Shenron said:
I think the Fighter has enough out-of-combat stuff

like what?

I agree with you, Falling Icycle, fighting classes should be sprinkled here and there with minor non combat abilities that enhance their flavor. For example, barbarians could have an ability to ignore penalties for riding without a saddle. Fighters could be better at forced march or ignoring pain or sleep deprivation. Abilities from exploration pillar that makes sense for each class and are fairly minor but flavorful.

Olgar Shiverstone · Mar 24, 2013

GX.Sigma said:
That's pretty much exactly what they did in this packet. They realized people didn't want to spend damage dice to do maneuvers, so they made maneuvers strictly additive. Then they opened them up so every class could take them, but the Fighter still gets more of them than anyone else. They're now called "Martial Feats."

No, they took Martial Damage Dice and made them Decisive Strike for damage, and split off Expertise Dice for maneuvers. ED still have a resource tracking and recharge mechanic to manage. I'm suggesting that can be deleted.