D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

MackMcMacky · Jun 9, 2017

On the idea that multiple settings killed TSR or some such. I don't know if that had anything to do with it except coincidence. Maybe, it did. However, I think the explosion in collectible card games and the birth of sophisticated online computer "roleplaying" games did a ton more damage than multiple settings. Most expatriate gamers weren't fleeing RPGs because of multiple settings. They had found new, shiny toys they liked better than tabletop RPG.

ccs · Jun 9, 2017

MackMcMacky said:
On the idea that multiple settings killed TSR or some such. I don't know if that had anything to do with it except coincidence. Maybe, it did. However, I think the explosion in collectible card games and the birth of sophisticated online computer "roleplaying" games did a ton more damage than multiple settings. Most expatriate gamers weren't fleeing RPGs because of multiple settings. They had found new, shiny toys they liked better than tabletop RPG.

So you don't believe the conclusions WoTC came to when they did thier financial analysis of the company they'd bought/were buying?
You know better than the people who made this investment?
It's very possible for a company to have too many product lines. Especially when there's strong competition from other similar/related things. You see car companies adjust thier model offerings each year because of this.

lowkey13 · Jun 9, 2017

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Cap'n Kobold · Jun 9, 2017

Mirtek said:
You mean no such NPC until you Start with the supplement about the dragon cobtinent with it's population of great wyrm + level XX NPC who secretly police the world and Make sure no one messes with their Interpretation of the prophecy?

Yep. But again: they are there as a foil for the PCs, not to overshadow them. The last time the dragons of Argonessen took action to counter a threat, they destroyed the an entire civilisation, and most of the continent it was on.

Those NPCs aren't adventurers, doing the things the PCs do but better. They are part of the plot: the ticking clock that the PCs are racing against, the spy network that the PCs are trying to keep from finding out about the villain, or the occasional quest giver/McGuffin that the DM can use to move the plot on.

Likewise as Aldarc has pointed out, the high-level NPCs Maxperson mentioned have very good reasons why they aren't overshadowing the PCs.
Eberron has always been a setting where the PCs are the people who matter, and may be quite unique, and the majority of PC-class-levelled NPCs are low.

Its a different basis than FR, where there are many high-level actual adventurers around. However that doesn't mean that you can't run FR like it was Eberron and have the PCs as the major movers and shakers, with the powerful NPCs detailed in the books relegated to background or not used entirely.

Demetrios1453 · Jun 9, 2017

Mercule said:
Indeed. There's almost as much information on Greyhawk in the 5E PHB as there was in the 3E Gazetteer. OK, that's an exaggeration, but not by as much as one might think. The SCAG, alone, has multiple times the info of the Realms as Greyhawk saw throughout 3E.

At this point, though, I'd take something at that level, just to get some visibility of something beyond the Realms to new players.

Wait, there's more info on the FR in SCAG than there was Greyhwk info in the LGG? Owning both books, LGG is far more detailed, it's not even close!

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JeffB · Jun 9, 2017

Demetrios1453 said:
Wait, there's more info on the FR in SCAG than there was Greyhwk info in the LGG? Owning both books, LGG is far more detailed, it's not even close!

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I believe [MENTION=5100]Mercule[/MENTION] is talking about the 3e Gazeteer. A 32ish page product that was similar to the original GH folio meant as a primer for the setting of Oerth at 3.0's release. I have it on a shelf around here somewhere.

Frankly, I think it is the better product for a DM to start a GH campaign. But my lack of enthusiasm for the LGG is no secret 'round these parts

Mercule · Jun 9, 2017

JeffB said:
I believe [MENTION=5100]Mercule[/MENTION] is talking about the 3e Gazeteer. A 32ish page product that was similar to the original GH folio meant as a primer for the setting of Oerth at 3.0's release. I have it on a shelf around here somewhere.

Yeah, I was. Honestly, I'd forgotten about the LGG and don't think I ever owned it (not sure why). I may have to retract my statement about the SCAG having more info on the Realms than existed on GH in 3E.

Looking at the intarwebs, I'd guess that it probably wouldn't have thrilled me, either. I didn't care for "From the Ashes", which is called out as one of the sources. That's one of the curious differences between FR and GH. The FR fans may not like the Realms-Shaking Events, but they mostly just roll with things. The Oerth-Shaking Events largely split the GH fanbase, as far as I can tell. Which is why, even though I like GH and would prefer to have non-Realms settings published, I tend to think GH should be left alone.

Mercule · Jun 9, 2017

lowkey13 said:
6. Really, really, really bad management. They had no good metrics on sales, returns, costs, and what customers wanted. Seriously.

7. Bad management, continued. There were various ways that money was being siphoned from TSR for less productive uses. If you catch my drift.

These cannot be overstated. Competence aside, there were people in the company who hated each other and would almost prefer to see everything fail than to see the other guy succeed along side them.

I'll also add:

8. Poor handling of the early Internet. This may not have been as big of a factor to the majority, but I was active in the DND-L listserv and left D&D for years because of the C&D letters being sent to folks to stop using terms like "armor class" and "hit points" in online discussion. White Wolf was just hitting their stride and had much better web relations.

lowkey13 · Jun 9, 2017

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Mercule · Jun 9, 2017

lowkey13 said:
Bolded for emphasis. I always say- be careful what you wish for. I've always felt that the Platonic ideal of a campaign setting, for me, was the original 1983 GH boxed set ("WOG"). WOG had enough information to set your campaign, filled with campaign and adventure hooks, but was mostly a blank slate that you filled in.

I am not everyone. There are those that love detailed lore. That love advancing the timeline. But I am not one of them. I want my campaign setting to inspire my ideas (what is in the Sea of Dust?), not to tell me what to do. And for that reason, I prefer a lighter touch. YMMV.

I'll agree with everything you've said, here. Gygax was truly unique in his ability to sprinkle pseudo-setting elements into his books without actually defining them. I honestly don't know how he did it, but you could read every word of the 1E PHB, DMG, and MM, and come away with a boatload of names for NPCs, places, and items that inspired you to want to put them into your games, but almost no actual meat about them. Yeah, if you grabbed the 1983 GH box, you got some concrete stuff (though still pretty broad). Without that, though, it was pure inspiration.

Looking at the DMG, the Mace of St. Cuthbert doesn't give any indication that St. Cuthbert is a god. I interpreted him to be just a hero of old, someone the PCs could aspire to be like. There's also no info on the Wind Dukes of Aaqa -- not even whether they fought on the side of Law or Chaos. I assumed they were on the side of Law, but definitely didn't equate them with Elemental Air, despite the name (and actively dislike the lore that made them such).

D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

MackMcMacky

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lowkey13

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Mercule

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