D&D 5E I'm *GASP* Actually Going to Be Playing 5e in a Few Weeks -- What are the Character Creation Pitfalls to Avoid?

pemerton

Legend
Your argument would have swayed until I played in a 3.x campaign a few years ago with a clueless player who made an extremely vulnerable bard. Now yes yes, 3.x requires more system mastery than 5e! But the choices that player made regarding her characters, if made in 5e, still would have resulted in a bad character (a PC with no defences in a combat heavy game). I don't want to re-write that thread again, but basically low con, okay-ish dex, very light armor, no defensive spells or magical item (she came in a bit later and, this being 3e, had a bit of gold to spend on magic).
I've got no doubt it's much easier to make a bad character in 3E than 5e. But I'm equally happy to believe that you can stuff it up in 5e if you get really unlucky or are extremely clueless. My point is that there are systems where there is no chance of accidentally making a bad character at all. 5e PC building only looks simple when the comparitors are games like 3E and 4e, or GURPs and its ilk. But it still involves putting together multiple mechanically intricate build components with non-transparent synergies (or lack thereof).

In truly transparent PC build systems cluelessness doesn't come into it, because all you have to do is put your biggest numbers (chosen from an array) next to the descriptors that best describe what it is that you want to do with your PC.
 

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pemerton

Legend
But... I fail to see the "trap".
If a dex 15 fighter is concerned about stealth, they might take the breastplate ($), or chain shirt, and they will be fine. If they are not, they will take heavier armour and also be fine. If they have a lower Dex, and are still concerned about stealth then it will be obvious from the one simple table that wearing a chain shirt or breastplate will allow them to have stealth but will result in a lower than optimal AC, and they will also be fine.

This is really no comparison to how nerfed a fighter with a bow would be in 4e, nor in the "trap" of "playstyle". A 5e fighter can play either way in both comparisons and still be "viable", 4e not so much.
My point is that neither is actually a trap for anyone who reviews the rules and class description in even the most cursory way.

Read the class abilities for a 4e fighter (combat challenge; combat superiority; any of the powers - you don't have to read them all to notice the trend, 1st level will do the job) and you will see that they all trigger on melee. You will see that there is no support for archery at all, so all your bow will be doing is plinking away while not deploying any of your class abilities.

Who looks at the rules for a 4e fighter and doesn't work out that the class is not a good chassis for an effective archer?

Similarly, I think it is pretty hard to "accidentally" build a light-armour STR fighter in 5e and not notice that your AC will be lower than it would be if you chose other options (eg medium armour, or even heavy armour and not relying on stealth strategies), for no mechanical benefit.

Reading the 4e fighter class description doesn't make it clear that using a bow is essentially bad
Yes it does.

The very first line of the class entry (PHB p 75) says "Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee."

On the same page, once you get out of the "class traits" box and into the more narrative text, the second sentence is "Fighters define the front line by bashing and slicing foes into submission while reflecting enemy attacks through the use of heavy armor."

On the nexgt page, under the heading "Creating a Fighter", the second sentence is "All fighters rely on Strength."

And then you get on to class features which are all usable only in melee circumstances. Combat challenge grants bonus attacks only when you are adjacent. Combat superiority triggers only on OAs, which require being adjacent. These are melee features.

Then you get to the powers. All the class powers are melee or close burst powers, or various buffs that enhance close combat. These are melee features. And they are all STR-based.

Bow is a DEX-based weapon that can't be used to make melee or opportunity attacks, that can't be used while adjacent to enemies without drawing an OA, that doesn't do anything to contain enemies in melee, and that isn't something you would use to bash or slice foes into submission while holding the front line of a combat.

I think this makes it crystal clear that building a fighter to use a bow is like building an AD&D magic-user to rely on melee dagger attacks: nothing in the rules forbids it, but even the most cursory reading of the rules will reveal that it was not what the designers had in mind, and fails to play to the strengths of the character.

pretty much any class with reasonable DEX and proficiency can pick up a bow and be more effective with it (relative to the system), than a 4e fighter.
This isn't true either. A 4e fighter at low levels who has reasonable DEX (eg a sword or spear build) who picks up a bow will be fine, being able to mark enemies and attack at range. The only archer build that will be wildly superior will be a ranger one, but in 5e the analogous character would also be superior (having a better DEX and the Archery fighting style, and perhaps the Sharpshooter feat also).

Once you get into higher levels (upper heroic and beyond) the fighter's bow option starts to drop away because DEX may not have kept up and there are no powers that enhance bow attacks, but it's not as if this won't be transparently obvious to the player!

(That's why the fighter in my game, at mid-heroic, took the Mighty Sprint skill power, because it was obvious that the character was far more effective trying to close and melee rather than make ranged attacks.)
 
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pemerton

Legend
5e has different standards for the skills and spells. Individual spells have spell descriptions that strictly define their effects. Skills and ability checks are more of a wide "category of things" type system.
Yes. That's the point: the standards are different, and this is a deliberate design choice which has consequences for the degree of "empowerment" of different sorts of PC builds.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm actually starting to think gaining a new spell when you gained a new spell level went back to 1e, though maybe it was optional.
I thought I posted this already upthread: it does go back to 1st ed (DMG p 39), it was not optional, but the rules don't say who gets to choose the spell. (But in any event there is always the possibility of failing the "% chance to know spell" roll.)
 

Jabborwacky

First Post
Yes. That's the point: the standards are different, and this is a deliberate design choice which has consequences for the degree of "empowerment" of different sorts of PC builds.

Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. The designers decided skills are general purpose and mundane, while spells are specialized and extraordinary -- except this runs counter to what people expect.
 
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happyhermit

Adventurer
First you say this;

...
Read the class abilities for a 4e fighter (combat challenge; combat superiority... You will see that there is no support for archery at all, so all your bow will be doing is plinking away while not deploying any of your class abilities.

Then you say this;

A 4e fighter at low levels who has reasonable DEX (eg a sword or spear build) who picks up a bow will be fine, being able to mark enemies and attack at range.

You are contradicting yourself.

The very first line of the class entry (PHB p 75) says "Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee."

Exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee =/= bad at ranged.

On the same page, once you get out of the "class traits" box and into the more narrative text, the second sentence is "Fighters define the front line by bashing and slicing foes into submission while reflecting enemy attacks through the use of heavy armor."

Reflecting enemy attacks and heavy armour =/= bad a ranged.

On the nexgt page, under the heading "Creating a Fighter", the second sentence is "All fighters rely on Strength."

Again, does not preclude having a decent dex.

This isn't true either. A 4e fighter at low levels who has reasonable DEX (eg a sword or spear build) who picks up a bow will be fine, being able to mark enemies and attack at range. The only archer build that will be wildly superior will be a ranger one, but in 5e the analogous character would also be superior (having a better DEX and the Archery fighting style, and perhaps the Sharpshooter feat also).

Once you get into higher levels (upper heroic and beyond) the fighter's bow option starts to drop away because DEX may not have kept up and there are no powers that enhance bow attacks, but it's not as if this won't be transparently obvious to the player!

No, the 4e fighter will not be fine, unless they fall back in line with the prescribed playstyle. If they try using a bow they will be very nearly useless within the "tightly balanced system" because it expects certain things. Pretty much any 5e character with the same dex as that 4e fighter will be more effective (relative to the system) using a bow than the 4e fighter using a bow. Not just the 5e ranger, and not just the 5e fighter.

Because of bounded accuracy, coupled with the fact that a "standard attack" is not substandard the way it was with AEDU, and other factors, 5e is more flexible in this way. Not only does it allow the fighter to be equally good with multiple attack types, it allows other classes to be decent with them as well, especially if they have the appropriate stats.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I've got no doubt it's much easier to make a bad character in 3E than 5e. But I'm equally happy to believe that you can stuff it up in 5e if you get really unlucky or are extremely clueless.
I think there's a line between simply not having/applying system mastery just sort of phoning it in, and willfully sandbagging or counter-optimizing. I'm sure it'd be hard to pin that line down, but it's there.

In 3.5, you don't have to go anywhere near that line to build a non-viable character. Just don't optimize /enough/ relative to the rest of the party or the challenges the DM has decided on.
That's player empowerment. (Being 'empowered' doesn't always make things easy on you.)

In 4e, you had to seek that line out, cross it, and put it far behind you to build a non-viable character - or you could turn around and apply all the system mastery you could manage without getting 3.x level rewards for it.
That was balance. (And we all know how well that worked out, thus the past tense.)

In 5e, you can hunt for that line all day, and run towards it like a mirage in the desert, and your DM can /still/ force your PC to contribute meaningfully - or you can powergame to the nth degree and your DM can still stymie your uber-character at every turn. ;P
That's DM Empowerment. (And, no, it doesn't always make it easier on the DM, but, yes it's working out quote well.)

My point is that neither is actually a trap for anyone who reviews the rules and class description in even the most cursory way.
Stay'n on the right side of the above line.

Similarly, I think it is pretty hard to "accidentally" build a light-armour STR fighter in 5e and not notice that your AC will be lower than it would be if you chose other options (eg medium armour, or even heavy armour and not relying on stealth strategies), for no mechanical benefit.
Or more DEX. Why would you choose lighter armor? The only real difference is disadvantage on Stealth. There's other armors that don't give that, and if you want to be stealthy, you want DEX, anyway.

Yes. That's the point: the standards are different, and this is a deliberate design choice which has consequences for the degree of "empowerment" of different sorts of PC builds.
Empowerment is on the DM side. Yes, spells do fairly specific things, but as a number of threads around here have illustrated, they're still written in natural language and call for DM adjudication.
 

pemerton

Legend
First you say this;

Then you say this;

You are contradicting yourself.
If you read the 4e fighter description and think that marking via attacks is the only important thing your character will do - and disregard your combat challenge bonus attacks, your combat superiority buff to OAs, and all your powers which are STR based and work only in melee/close combat - then I think that counts as not even cursorily reading the class description.

Exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee =/= bad at ranged.

<snip>

Reflecting enemy attacks and heavy armour =/= bad a ranged.
The class opens by saying your character's role consists in an exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee. It then goes on to say that you bash and slice on the front line, wearing heavy armour to keep you safe. And on the next page (but not very far in, because a lot of the first page is a splash illustration) it tells you that all fighters rely on STR.

If you think that this leaves it an open question whether your character will be effective being built as a DEX-based ranged attacker, then we have very different standards for what counts as giving something even a cursory read.

the 4e fighter will not be fine, unless they fall back in line with the prescribed playstyle. If they try using a bow they will be very nearly useless within the "tightly balanced system" because it expects certain things.
The 4e fighter who tries to use a bow with DEX will be ignoring most of his/her class features (all except the abiity to mark; and the mark won't trigger any bonus attacks). Hence (to borrow the adjective from the opening line of the class description) s/he will not do anything exceptional.

At low heroic, though, s/he will still contribute damage with a good chance to hit (assuming a reasonable DEX) and the mark will be helpful. A ranger will do better (and obviously so, because of Twin Strike - the mechanical difference between the two builds is not hidden away somewhere).

The fighter's high hp and good AC will be largely wasted in a ranged build, but that's been true since AD&D days.

We can even compare numbers: a 18 DEX first level fighter in 4e, with Weapon Focus bow, has +6 to hit with a bow and deals 1d10+5 damage, for an average of 10.5 on a hit. And marks. An 18 DEX first level ranger in 4e with Weapon Focus also has +6 to hit and (twin striking) deals 2d10+2 damage, plus quarry damage. That's 13 on a hit plus a better chance to land quarry (because both rolls give a chance), so let's count that as 7 damage (about 1.5 times 4.5) to say the ranger's average damage is nearly 20, or close to double the fighter's. But no mark, and weaker hit points.

A 1st level goblin, in 4e, generally has hp in the mid 20s. So the ranger often won't drop one in a single hit, and the fighter has a reasonable chance of dropping one in two hits. The ranger will be obviously better, but the fighter won't be obviously ineffective. If the fighter was in melee s/he wouldn't be doing a heap more damage (a bit more, with Cleave and/or Reaping Strike, but not a heap more). What s/he would be doing is exercising battlefield control.

But this all seems secondary to my point: how can it count as a trap to build a ranged fighter in 4e, when the class description explicitly states that the class is intended to be a front-line STR-based melee character? It's self-evident that you won't be exercising battlefield control with you character who has an exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee if you're not in melee!

Pretty much any 5e character with the same dex as that 4e fighter will be more effective (relative to the system) using a bow than the 4e fighter using a bow. Not just the 5e ranger, and not just the 5e fighter.

Because of bounded accuracy, coupled with the fact that a "standard attack" is not substandard the way it was with AEDU, and other factors, 5e is more flexible in this way.
I thought we were talking about trap options, not flexibility.

The 5e fighter covers the mechanical ground of the 4e fighter, most of the 4e ranger, and parts of the 4e warlord. In that sense the class is more flexible. But that doesn't mean that there is a trap option in 4e of building a ranged fighter; any more than (to use my example from upthread) there is a trap option in 5e of building a 13 DEX leather-armour wearing fighter. The system makes it transparent that both builds are failing to get the best out of the class and the character.

The 4e and 5e 1st level wizards are more flexible than the AD&D magic-user, in that they are more capable in melee. In 4e this is because of INT adding to AC; in 5e it is because if the MU has DEX adding to AC it is easier to get closer to heavy-armour level AC than in AD&D (because of the changes in how armour and AC work together to give a final AC value), and also because you have a +2 to hit and the possibility of using your DEX to attack with.

But this doesn't mean that building your 1st level AD&D MU with an aim towards engaging in melee with a dagger is a trap option. The book comes right out and tells you that you will suck at melee; just like the 4e PHB comes right out and tells you that your fighter should be built as a STR-based melee-focused PC. If you ignore that advice, and then discover that your PC isn't all that effective, you've not been trapped. You've run a risk and come a cropper.
 
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I'd be interested in how the character creation for an Apocalypse World character works if you have time to explain it.

Sure. The Playbooks for Apocalypse world are free online http://apocalypse-world.com/AW-basicplaybooks-legal.pdf so grab one and follow along.

Let's take the Hardholder because i haven't made one before. The concept is explained in the flavour text. Go to 'creating a chopper'

The first thing is Name, which works like any RPG ever. The game providers some suggestions as a prompt and to set the tone.

Then we have Stats. The game lets you pick from of pre-prepared stat lines which let you tinking with your character, but note that Hard, the most important stat for a hardholder, always starts maxed. This is a key part of the idiot proofing.

Moves! This is sort of the 'class abilities' in Apocalypse world. The hardholder comes with all moves predefined, but some other playbooks have some moves predefined and pick some off a list, and some are all moves picked off a list. Moves are not trap options and anything essential for the playbook is a fixed choice, so it's impossible to gimp yourself.

Your Gang! The big hard holder customisation thing is their Gang. You may want to do this after the History step, but you can do it now. Your gang has a number of default options, and you pick 4 bennies and 2 negative things. Do you have a big group with a factory in a big fortification and a well equipped gang (because you have cash), but the population is lazy and your gang is small? Go for it! The stories write themselves by looking at the hardhold's strengths and weaknesses

History! Now you codesign your characters with the other players. Each playbook has history points:

Go around again for Hx. On your turn:
• Choose whether you are by nature
generous with your trust and resources,
or reserved. If the former, then tell
everyone Hx+1. If the latter, then tell
everyone Hx=0.
On the others’ turns, choose 1 or both:
• One of them has been with you since
before. Whatever number that player
tells you, give it +1 and write it next to
the character’s name.
• One of them once betrayed you or stole
from you. Whatever number that player
tells you, ignore it; write Hx+3 next to
the character’s name instead.

You agree together the details of, for example, what betrayal looked like, or what was stolen (and do you want revenge? Do they even still have it?). AT the end of this step, the group has bonds forged between them and the world is also created.

Gear! You pick some! This will mostly be simple weapons e.g. a pistol or a shotgun or whatever for the hardholder. Gear based classes have more diverse 'pick from list' choices. The lists are fairly internally balanced due to the tag system.

Advancement Mechanism: The advancement mechanism in Apocalypse world is simply that you make tests against the highlighted stats, and your highlighted stats are decided by the other players and the GM which allows everyone to set the tone collectively. The highlighted stat changes at the start of each session, but via the same mechanism (the DM and the character your character has the most history with highlight a stat)

This is very simple character generation and very fast and you codesign the world AND you decide what stories you want to tell.
 

happyhermit

Adventurer
If you read the 4e fighter description and think that marking via attacks is the only important thing your character will do - and disregard your combat challenge bonus attacks, your combat superiority buff to OAs, and all your powers which are STR based and work only in melee/close combat - then I think that counts as not even cursorily reading the class description.

That's not what I said, what I said is true, whereas you clearly contradicted yourself and fail to recognize it.

The class opens by saying your character's role consists in an exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee. It then goes on to say that you bash and slice on the front line, wearing heavy armour to keep you safe. And on the next page (but not very far in, because a lot of the first page is a splash illustration) it tells you that all fighters rely on STR.

If you think that this leaves it an open question whether your character will be effective being built as a DEX-based ranged attacker, then we have very different standards for what counts as giving something even a cursory read.

Instead of responding to what I wrote, you are simply repeating yourself, almost verbatim. You are ignoring basic logic because it contradicts your point. I will try to word it differently. Saying that "pemerton" is excellent at X, does NOT mean that he isn't good at Y, saying he relies on Q does not mean he cannot also use M. A more similar example would be 5e, a class (or even a character) that "excels at melee" and "relies on strength", can be good with a bow, assuming proficiency and relevant stats.

The 4e fighter who tries to use a bow with DEX will be ignoring most of his/her class features (all except the abiity to mark; and the mark won't trigger any bonus attacks). Hence (to borrow the adjective from the opening line of the class description) s/he will not do anything exceptional.

At low heroic, though, s/he will still contribute damage with a good chance to hit (assuming a reasonable DEX) and the mark will be helpful. A ranger will do better (and obviously so, because of Twin Strike - the mechanical difference between the two builds is not hidden away somewhere).

The fighter's high hp and good AC will be largely wasted in a ranged build, but that's been true since AD&D days.

We can even compare numbers: a 18 DEX first level fighter in 4e, with Weapon Focus bow, has +6 to hit with a bow and deals 1d10+5 damage, for an average of 10.5 on a hit. And marks. An 18 DEX first level ranger in 4e with Weapon Focus also has +6 to hit and (twin striking) deals 2d10+2 damage, plus quarry damage. That's 13 on a hit plus a better chance to land quarry (because both rolls give a chance), so let's count that as 7 damage (about 1.5 times 4.5) to say the ranger's average damage is nearly 20, or close to double the fighter's. But no mark, and weaker hit points.

Obviously the ranger is miles ahead with twin-strike, because the the fighter is doing basic attacks, which are sub-standard in 4e. That is not even half the problem though, nor is primeshot and hunter's quarry, or the many other features that go to the ranger, which would also put the ranger miles ahead.

The real problem is that while basic attacks are ineffective compared to at-wills, that is not the extent of the problem because even fighting with just at-wills in 4e was relatively ineffective against the encounters and dailies that the "tightly balanced mechanical system" counted on.

Anyways, this conversation is going nowhere. Can we agree on this? Let me know where we agree and where we diverge;

A 4e fighter with reasonable dex, using a bow, is going to be less effective than a 4e ranger with a bow, within the 4e RAW and RAI system which obviously includes AEDU, regardless of the stats and proficiencies.

A 4e fighter with reasonable dex, using a bow, will be less effective (relative to the system) than 5e fighter of the same dex, using a bow.

A 4e fighter with reasonable dex, using a bow, will be less effective (relative to the system) than ANY 5e class with the same dex, using a bow.

Saying that a class is exceptional at something doesn't preclude it being effective with something else.

In 5e specifically, saying that a class is exceptional at something does not preclude it being effective with something else.

In 5e, saying that a class relies on a particular stat does not preclude them from being effective with another one.

In 5e, things that you argued clearly "demonstrate" that using a bow was not an option with the 4e fighter, would not demonstrate that.

The wording that was argued as clearly demonstrating that a 4e fighter was not effective with a bow, if taken the way you describe, in 5e would lead to the mistaken assumption that any class that was excellent at something else, would not be good with a bow (stats and proficiency providing).
 

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