D&D 5E Should PHB +1 apply to spells?

thethain

First Post
If it applies to punches, it applies to spells. Spellcasters get enough of a bonus compared to non-spellcasters, they don't need another.

Although in my home game I wouldn't put a +1 limitation just because I like variety and to see what oddball combos people might come up with. As a DM you have lots of tools to adjust things anyways.
 

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I know the rule is there to keep the game balanced

I think the rule is more about making life easy on GMs.

Imagine being a GM at an AL table with 5 players, none of which have met anyone before, all of which have features from multiple books, none of which are experts on all of those books. The sheer amount of page-flipping as people find rules is going to drive the GM batty.
 

So, I ran into a kink when brainstorming for a character. He's a Paladin/Warlock that I'm planning on giving the Booming and Green Flame Blade cantrips from SCAG, but I was planning on using the Celestial patron (assuming that winds up in XGE), and I was hoping to keep him AL legal.

This got me thinking, should PHB +1 really apply to spells. I know the rule is there to keep the game balanced, and I'm perfectly fine with it for classes, races, and backgrounds, but would allowing the full list of spells really make the game broken. I will admit, I don't know nearly all the spells inside and out, but I don't think allowing a Bladesinger to use Ice Knife would take a sledgehammer to balance. Think about it, most spell casters can only know X amount of spells from there spell list anyway, so would allowing more options really hurt?

The only problem I see here is with Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and, to an extent, Wizards, who know (or can know) all the spells from their spell lists, but can only have Y amount of them prepared at one time. I don't see this as much of an issue. So your (possible) Shepherd Druid has access to Beast Bond. Yeah it gives a little more versatility that you wouldn't have otherwise, but is it really that OP? Heck, in the case of Wizards, there's a chance for Bladesingers to come across a scroll of Earthbind to copy into their spellbooks.

If there's something here that would actually wreck the balance of the game that I missed, please tell me. I still don't believe lifting PHB +1 from spells would be catastrophic, but I made this thread to start a discussion.

P.S. I realize this might not be one of my best formed arguments, but I'm really having a hard time finding a solid argument for the opposing side of this. Maybe that's because of bias, and if it is and you guys can think of one, then feel free to post.

Assuming you are talking about AL play, the Core +1 rule only applies at character creation and when you level up. Anything you find in an adventure or spells you trade with another PC do not have the Core +1 rule apply. So you and another player could be in the same game with compatible caster characters and, assuming there is sufficient downtime available in-game, trade spells. Sure, that is an extra step to get what you really want for your character, but not against the rules if you and a buddy wanted to try and make it work. And of course, there is also the chance of a captured spellbook having something useful that is not part of your Core +1 choice.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think the rule is more about making life easy on GMs.

Imagine being a GM at an AL table with 5 players, none of which have met anyone before, all of which have features from multiple books, none of which are experts on all of those books. The sheer amount of page-flipping as people find rules is going to drive the GM batty.
Sure, but I still think the rule is chiefly there to prevent supplement power combos.



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jasper

Rotten DM
I think the rule is more about making life easy on GMs.

Imagine being a GM at an AL table with 5 players, none of which have met anyone before, all of which have features from multiple books, none of which are experts on all of those books. The sheer amount of page-flipping as people find rules is going to drive the GM batty.
we are already batty. the page flipping just makes us angry. and you wouldn't like if you made us angry!
Jasper purple dice bag splits. And all the green d20 roll nat 20s.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
. The sheer amount of page-flipping as people find rules is going to drive the GM batty.
Heh, "we're not in community college, this is not an open-book exam."

...more of a Socratic lecture...

;)

Seriously, if there's too much page-flipping, put the books away (or at least take them behind the screen) at the table, depend on the DM's knowledge, judgement, and rulings.
 
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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
It's not like the game is all that balanced to begin with, but it limits cross-pollination and outre combos and keeps the optimization bar for AL play from rising too high, and thus helps keep organized pay welcoming to new/returning players.

I agree with Tony. Having a source coming out balanced when paired with the material in the PHB - a reasonable expectation. But we've seen historically that it's not reasonable to expect every source that comes out to be balanced with every other source, that there will be no killer combos or things that force multipliers for each other to end up a lot more powerful together.

In addition I believe I've heard it said from official sources that the rule was also there to encourage new players by reducing the barrier to entry - that they wouldn't be at a disadvantage compared to someone who already owns all the books.

Sorry, I know you're looking for a cantrip from one book and a subclass from another which doesn't seem over-powered. The PHB +1 rule does disallow reasonable combos as well which is why many non-AL games don't follow the rule.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Saying "which is why many non-AL games don't follow the rule" implies there is a rule to follow. There isn't.

Again, it isn't a rule. Only in the small subset of games organized by the AL do several extra rules apply, and this is one of them.

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MostlyDm

Explorer
Saying "which is why many non-AL games don't follow the rule" implies there is a rule to follow. There isn't.

Again, it isn't a rule. Only in the small subset of games organized by the AL do several extra rules apply, and this is one of them.

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Sure, but the rules also don't suggest that non PHB books are okay, either.

For non AL play, the game assumes no feats, no multiclass, and just the PHB classes/races. Basically, [MENTION=45197]pming[/MENTION]'s game.

Any other method comes down to you as a DM exercising your god given right to allow whatever rules and books you choose. It's not standardized because... how could it be? Why? It's such a choice of personal preference.

AL had to make those decisions for you. It tried to strike a sort of compromising middle road.
 

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