D&D 5E Help me with good RP/Optimization balance for Half-Elf (probably)Valor Bard (archer?)

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Context I was talking about a half elf valor bard, yes there are other races and options available. Your elf build is a lot worse at being a bard with 13 charisma so you're sacrificed bard dice and spell casting ability to make an archer who is worse at being an archer than other classes.
I specified eladrin or drow, so 14 Cha. I'm not as down with half-elf, since you can't get an 18 Dex with Elven Accuracy at level 4.

And yes, he's a worse archer than a dedicated archer, and a worse bard than a dedicated bard. BUT.... he's a better attacker than the dedicated bard, and a better caster than the dedicated archer. So really, it comes down to how much you value specialization over generalization. I tend to favor builds that are pretty good at several things rather than really good at one thing, so that's why I tend to like builds like these.
 

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OlegRu

First Post
Just curious: when were you last into D&D?

In my late teens, about 15 years ago. I played a bunch of ADND2e and some 3e (which I remember disliking for being too technical, but maybe it was a childhood thing). I also played the Werewolf and Vampire table tops.
 
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OlegRu

First Post
So from reading all of the replies, here are my follow-up ideas/questions for you guys - @Zardnaar, @TwoSix, @Mistwell, @Tony Vargas, @Treantmonklvl20

I'll format this to go by topic:

  1. Is there something you'd recommend outside an archer bard that would fit my char's style (maybe some simple-type multiclass I mentioned in the OP or something else)? Also, is a ranged bard preferable to keep him safer due to lower defense/HP and for spell concentration?
  2. Ability Scores: Cool so I'll probably take the STR10 DEX16 CON12 INT10 WIS12 CHA16 then. (I care about strength as I'd like to have decent athletics score and wisdom, again, for the skills) Although, I'm a bit worried regarding the CON - I've seen a lot of talk that it's important - for concentration I think?
  3. So in order to avoid issues casting, I should equip just a sword if I'm not using ranged at the moment, not the shield? (and keep shield around just in case, but I'm not sure when I'd use it)
  4. For armor, yeah I don't want penalties to stealth as I'd like my char to be able to sneak around in the wilderness camouflaged or hide places, so I guess the best option is breastplate and then lighter armor if I get a 20 DEX.
  5. Feats/ASIs: So increasing attack stuff (DEX), i'll be sacrificing magic power (CHA)... hmmm.... so I'm going to talk about ASI/Feats here. From what I understand, the popular valor bard archer build is based on getting the Sharpshooter feat (and often-times Elven accuracy) plus Warcaster is quite popular - helps not lose concentration and can cast with weapons/shield in hand (from what I understand). I guess this means either 20 DEX/20 CHA and Sharpshooter or 18/20 20/18 (not sure which is preferable) and Sharpshooter, Warcaster or 19/18 and Sharpshooter, Warcaster, Elven accuracy.I'm too much of a n00b to know which is better and/or if there are better combos out there for what I'm trying to do.
  6. I guess as I play I could do some things tentatively - see what I enjoy doing more in combat (attacks/spells/both) and decide the order to take the ASI's and Feats as I go. But what would generally be the preferred order? Sharpshooter ASAP, then boost CHA, then others?
  7. Spells: I've read that a bard can't change his cantrips once selecting them, but that he can change up his spells each level - is this accurate? Can he change his spells from magical secrets? What are the most recommended cantrips and spells for this build? (I know if I go with valor bard archer, swift quiver is a must).
  8. Skills: I'm a huge fan of skills. I was thinking to take Athletics (I want to be a good swimmer/climber etc.), Stealth, Perception, Survival, Persuasion, Deception, and Acrobatics or Animal Handling(I want to be able to ride mounted at high levels without getting tossed). No sure what to waste my expertise on - the 2nd pair of skills comes at later levels so I could see what I use most as I go, but the 1st one is around the corner. I know having a boss CHA-based skill is a good idea, but I also wanted to boost my athletics, stealth, perception - not sure which to do.
 
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ccs

41st lv DM
Questions: If he's the archer build, would rapier be good as a backup melee weapon (for epic flavor in some situations)? Should he have a shield for when he's using the rapier or just a sword?
There's not much, if any, reason NOT to use a rapier in this setup. A d8 weapon that keys off your 16 Dex or a sword that likely uses your +0 Str. Hmm....

Shields: The math says use a shield. But you should play the character that your envisioning. So, does a shield fit that vision?

Is casting with a bow going to be a problem? What about with a sword and shield?

With a bow? No. For somantic components of spells you need 1 free hand. So unless you're always walking around with an arrow knocked it likely won't be interfering. And you can't cast a spell at the same time your firing the bow.
With sword/rapier + shield? That'll interfere. But you should talk to your DM about this. I've seen a great many who simply ignore limitations like this. At the worst you'll just have to learn to plan how to cast spells better.


Armor-wise - since this build would have a high DEX (I imagine), is breastplate or something else worth it (capping out the modifier at 2)? Or should he use only light armor?

Barring some other future modifier, your AC (with shield) will top out at either 18 (breastplate or chain shirt) or 17 (studded leather).
Without shield it's: 15 (studded leather), 16 (chain shirt), or 16 (breastplate).
I don't see any math reason except GP cost to go with studded leather (or lighter), and I doubt you'll be able to afford breastplate early on (it's 400GP). So chain shirt?
The only rules reason you'd take leather is if you use the starting equipment package.

Now on the RP end of the spectrum? You should absolutely use the armor that fits your vision. Even if that's not optimal. One of my own characters was a barbarian with decent stats. And I still wore a breast plate even though it'd have been about 2 AC pts higher with zero armor.


Will I be sacrificing any cool stuff (magic, skills, abilities etc.) optimizing his ranged attack?

Well, you won't get that feat/ASI bump until 4th lv. So you've got a few sessions to further ponder this one.
*Will taking Sharpshooter help more than taking ______?
*What will best help me play the character I'm envisioning? Sharpshooter or ______? I generally go with whatever furthers my vision.
*And keep an eye on how the story itself is progressing. Sometimes there might be other considerations.

As far as optimizing by stat? There's nothing wrong with your stats. As a bard Cha is important. And your 16 dex influences bow & rapier attacks, AC, initiative & is a fairly common saving throw. And since you don't want any negatives....


Is getting feats going to leave him on the low end with ability scores? If I raise scores, should it be straight DEX and CHA?

See my answer above.


What would be the optimal progression by levels to build this guy?


Bard 1, Bard 2, Bard 3, Bard 4..... and go with the flow of the game. As for Multi-classing? You'll have a tough time qualifying for that with either of the stat lines you're looking at.

Ability Scores (char is half-elf):

10 16(+1 incl.) 12 (+1 incl.) 10 12 16 (+2 incl.)![/QUOTE]

I'd do this one.
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
[MENTION=6995253]OlegRu[/MENTION]

1) Bard is pretty much spot on for your concept. If you want to be more skill-focused and a better caster, lore bard is probably a better fit, and certainly fits your RP concept. Valor is generally worthwhile if you're willing to invest feats, ASIs, and spell choices to make your weapon combat. Basically, you'd have to decide how high of a priority good archery is to your character.

You could probably also fit this character concept into a warlock, depending on your willingness to stretch class flavor.

2) Con is very important, for both hit points and for making concentration checks. Most people recommend starting with a 14 here if at all possible.

3) Personally, if I'm sitting back casting, I'd rather have just the shield than just the sword, but that's personal preference.

4) A) Breastplate if you can afford it. B) Scale mail or chain shirt if you can't (depending on how much you value stealth). C) Studded leather if you value stealth, can't afford a breastplate, and have a 16 Dex, OR you decide to go lore bard.

5) Yea, the general feats you'd be looking at are Sharpshooter (a near must for focused archer builds), War Caster (helps with concentration and lets you not worry about hands), and possibly Elven Accuracy. I like Elven Accuracy because it does give a +1 stat bump, and both elves and half elves will usually have a 17 in Cha or Dex at level 1 assuming point buy. Others don't value the bump quite as highly, and it usually devolves into math arguments when discussed. :)

I, personally, don't find character building past level 10 or so very interesting, so I tend to only evaluate the best feats for levels 4 and 8. At levels 12, 16, 19, I assume you'd just want to bump your favorite stat up to 20 if it isn't there already.

6) Tough call. I think in strictly numeric terms getting your main stat to 20 is probably better, but I tend to value the quality of life benefits that feats provide over the number increase. But there's good arguments for either direction. I would personally advise not getting Sharpshooter until 8, because it really starts to pay off once your accuracy has improved and you have more ways to generate advantage. (Even without Elven Accuracy, advantage is huge for Sharpshooters.)

7) Yea, can't trade cantrips, but you can trade in one spell for another whenever you level. For Bards, up to level 10 I tend to think of it as you gain 2 spells every level, but lose 1. Spells to choose have to be based on the concept, but for an archer, anything that gives advantage is good. Look for spells that don't require concentration, and any spells that are bonus actions or reactions.

8) Well, with jack of all trades, you'll be decent at a lot of skills. I tend to prefer to put Expertise in skills I have a high stat in, but really, this is something that can definitely be a role-playing choice. I haven't seen too many DMs play a style where any one particular skill check will make or break you, but only you know that about your own game.
 

Apparently the original version of this formatted weird, so the edit.

1) Your primary thing will be neither Ranged combat nor Melee combat, it will be spells. Just because Bards can use weapons doesn't make them anything other than what they are: A primary spellcaster.

2) That said, by all means a rapier and a longbow and a good Dex are all a good idea, then you can stick stuff from Range or Melee when you aren't slinging spells.

3) I would make rapier/shield the default, because that +2 AC from the shield will give you a better AC, and nothing makes a Lower Con score more tolerable than taking less damage

4) Glad you like skills, because you took the right class, with Jack of All Trades you get all of them! (kinda), + all the tools, + initiative bonus, + any other ability checks.

If it was me, I would half-plate up whether it gave me disadvantage on stealth or not, but if that's a big deal, then yes, a breastplate is a good option.

5) When it comes to ability score increases - I would recommend Warcaster first and foremost, otherwise you can't perform somatic components when that rapier and shield are out. Then I would get that Cha up to 20. Again, spells are the real power of a Bard, not sticking people with sharp stuff (unless that "sharp stuff" are a bunch of animated objects!). After Cha is 20, then if you like Sharpshooter, or Dex, or whatever, go for it.

Hope that helps.
 
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Reminder:

Starting with 10,16,14,10,10,16 is fine. Same goes for starting with bow as your main weapon.
By level 4 you should know if you increase cha or dex.
By level 8 you know better. By level 10 you can make an educated guess if you are using a bow or would rather have an attack spell or a great concentration based buff or debuff.
And best is: you can always switch between both builds. If you somehow end with 18 dex and 18 cha at level 8 you are not a lot behind as others might have taken a feat or two.
Also you never know what magic items fall into your hand or what other players do and what kind of adventures you are playing.
A valor bard can adept to anyithing and be a great addition to any party and you really need to work to make a bad valor bard.
 

So I want a guy who can fight and cast, and mainly is good for RPing and social, with good skills.

Is there anything better than a valor bard in my situation? Something that can do all that and deal damage that doesn't have to be a prime-combatant like our fighter and all.

I can't roll for stats as our dm only gave us the two options I mentioned, unfortunately.

Also, what you think of the other questions?

Has anyone suggested paladin yet (If you ignore the bit about not outdoing fighters)?
 

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