TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
You could, but you certainly don't have to, depending on how the new mechanic is implemented.
D&D 5E Improving Two-Weapon Fighting
- Thread starter Xeviat
- Start date
Xeviat
Hero
Monks have a separate issue similar to TWF more generally - a key ability tied to BA that prevents synergy. The Monk's ability is more baked in though, and they have some other options with dips to compensate, plus some other complicating factors, so that wouldn't be the top of my list of fixes, although it probably should be addressed at some point.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
To make sure I'm getting this right, are you saying that a Monk's extra Martial Arts Attack and Flurry of Blows should also be removed from the bonus action?
Xeviat
Hero
If I removed the bonus action requirement and made TWFing with two shorts words functionally 1d6+stat and 1d6 per "attack", what abilities would need to be changed to compensate?
Barbarians: A TWFing barbarian would deal more damage while raging than a GWFer without feats. Rage damage bonus may need to be reduced when fighting with two weapons.
Rogues: This would be a straight up buff to rogue versatility. They'd be able to use their cunning action more.
Hunters Mark and Hex: per hit damage boosts may need to be addressed. They could be changed to dealing their bonus damage only once per round when an attack hits. More attacks increase the chance of that landing. They could deal +1d6 at 1st level slot, +2d6 at 3rd level slot, and +3d6 at 5th level slot. They already deal more damage spread out than Smite does, especially when you can keep it up for multiple combats, so reining them in might not be bad.
What other areas would need to be addressed? I want the fighting styles to be equivalent, and I believe removing the bonus action and scaling with Extra Attack is the only way.
Barbarians: A TWFing barbarian would deal more damage while raging than a GWFer without feats. Rage damage bonus may need to be reduced when fighting with two weapons.
Rogues: This would be a straight up buff to rogue versatility. They'd be able to use their cunning action more.
Hunters Mark and Hex: per hit damage boosts may need to be addressed. They could be changed to dealing their bonus damage only once per round when an attack hits. More attacks increase the chance of that landing. They could deal +1d6 at 1st level slot, +2d6 at 3rd level slot, and +3d6 at 5th level slot. They already deal more damage spread out than Smite does, especially when you can keep it up for multiple combats, so reining them in might not be bad.
What other areas would need to be addressed? I want the fighting styles to be equivalent, and I believe removing the bonus action and scaling with Extra Attack is the only way.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Monks can TWF and still use martial arts.
Any magic items that grant a per attack damage bonus start to greatly favor the TWF.
Haste would grant 2 attacks (possibly is intentional)
Gloomstalker would potentially get a bonus action attack on first turn as well with his ability.
Crit Fishining on Paladins or warlocks could be very strong.
Personally I'd be most concerned about crit finishing and magic items. Haste by itself still wouldn't be adding more than a Greatsword even this way. So really it's about eliminating flat damage bonuses and finding some way to curb crit fishing, especially on paladins who can hold their large damage abilities till they crit.
Valor bards feel better as dual wielders.
Samauri's can actually TWF and use their Samauri ability
Xeviat
Hero
Thanks for the points!
"Monks can TWF and still use martial arts."
Monks need to be dealing 1d8+3 +1d4+3 to keep up with sneak attack damage (3d6+3 is 13.5, monk is 13). Reword their martial arts. They get +1 attack always that has to be unarmed. Flurry is a bonus action for another +1 attack that has to be unarmed. Martial Arts is an upgraded TWFing basically. I'll have to circle back to decide what happens at level 5 for the Monk.
"Any magic items that grant a per attack damage bonus start to greatly favor the TWF."
Other than magic weapons, which I addressed in my original post (2 magic weapons for the TWFer can be compared to 1 magic weapon and a belt of giant strength for the GWFer), is there anything that grants a blanket bonus to all damage? I'm not aware, but it's been a while since I read all the magic items and I haven't ever fully digested them.
"Haste would grant 2 attacks (possibly is intentional)"
Like you said, this is fine, it lines up with Greatsword.
"Gloomstalker would potentially get a bonus action attack on first turn as well with his ability."
What bonus action attack would you be looking at there? Or do you just mean from multiclassing?
"Crit Fishining on Paladins or warlocks could be very strong."
The fix here is simple: base smite is a bonus action. It's basically a raw smite spell that you automatically know. I don't like smites being able to be stacked or multiple smites in a round. I'd prefer they get paced out, and once per round would be fine. Now you have to hope your first attack is a crit.
"Valor bards feel better as dual wielders."
At least they'd have options between sword/board, great weapon, or two weapons.
"Samauri's can actually TWF and use their Samauri ability"
Yeah that would be nice.
"Monks can TWF and still use martial arts."
Monks need to be dealing 1d8+3 +1d4+3 to keep up with sneak attack damage (3d6+3 is 13.5, monk is 13). Reword their martial arts. They get +1 attack always that has to be unarmed. Flurry is a bonus action for another +1 attack that has to be unarmed. Martial Arts is an upgraded TWFing basically. I'll have to circle back to decide what happens at level 5 for the Monk.
"Any magic items that grant a per attack damage bonus start to greatly favor the TWF."
Other than magic weapons, which I addressed in my original post (2 magic weapons for the TWFer can be compared to 1 magic weapon and a belt of giant strength for the GWFer), is there anything that grants a blanket bonus to all damage? I'm not aware, but it's been a while since I read all the magic items and I haven't ever fully digested them.
"Haste would grant 2 attacks (possibly is intentional)"
Like you said, this is fine, it lines up with Greatsword.
"Gloomstalker would potentially get a bonus action attack on first turn as well with his ability."
What bonus action attack would you be looking at there? Or do you just mean from multiclassing?
"Crit Fishining on Paladins or warlocks could be very strong."
The fix here is simple: base smite is a bonus action. It's basically a raw smite spell that you automatically know. I don't like smites being able to be stacked or multiple smites in a round. I'd prefer they get paced out, and once per round would be fine. Now you have to hope your first attack is a crit.
"Valor bards feel better as dual wielders."
At least they'd have options between sword/board, great weapon, or two weapons.
"Samauri's can actually TWF and use their Samauri ability"
Yeah that would be nice.
Not necessarily. Maybe the first. Someone who agrees that TWF should not take a bonus action would also agree that the monks additional MA attack shouldn't take a bonus action. Flurry of blows could probably stay a BA though, at least in my books.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
If if you make all those changes then removing twf bonus action should be fine. You might impact other areas of the game. We have just been looking at those changes through the lens of twf
thats still a lot of work just to give twf an increasing number of attacks
thats still a lot of work just to give twf an increasing number of attacks
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