D&D 5E Given WotC plans with the RPG will 5e always be the #1 seller?

Tony Vargas

Legend
BUT...if WotC keeps their word about releasing books at a slower pace, and Paizo which does release something every month, then we'd expect that there will be sales quarters where D&D isn't the number one sales spot and Pathfinder is.
WotC's record for sticking to a strategy, aside, yes, if they go for a slow pace of publication, and eschew more splash-making products (the kind that add character options and contribute to power-inflation, for instance), then, yes, you'd expect the 'top seller' spot on a month by month basis to depend mainly upon which system (if any) put out something genuinely interesting that month.

I don't see how 5e could easily fail to out-sell, everyone else by measures like, say, core rulebooks in total, though.
 

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Mercurius

Legend
Interesting conversation(s - there are a few going on simultaneously, as usual).

I think an important distinction should be made between creative input and influencing creative process. A parent company (Hasbro) can influence creative process without having any direct creative input. If Hasbro says "You need to make X amount of profit per year or we'll pull the plug," that influences creative process in that WotC needs to make sure they meet those financial goals. But it isn't the same thing as creative input, which would be Hasbro saying "We want rainbow fairy gnomes in the Player's Handbook!" Or "Cleavage on every hardcover book because boobs sell, especially Drow boobs!"

Here's an example of how creative input and influencing creative process are quite different. I'm currently revising the draft of my first novel. My wife has no creative input whatsoever. Now our marriage and life together may indirectly influence my story; and truly, whether or not she's willing to tolerate me going off to the coffee shop for hours on end while she toils away with the rugrats will certainly influence my creative process. But in no way is she directly offering creative input, unless I ask her, which I generally don't.

Now it seems that Mearls & Minions have concocted an ingenious strategy to keep D&D viable without negatively impacting creativity by generating an excess of low-quality splat books. They've created a kind of "buffer zone" between the tabletop RPG and Hasbro by embedding the RPG within the larger D&D brand name, which will have numerous avenues of revenue. So while Hasbro will be looking at the bottom line for D&D, they won't necessarily be looking at the different components within D&D. So all that matters is that "D&D" is profitable; if the brand is successful as a whole, Mearls & Minions have even more creative freedom to do what they want with the tabletop RPG.

On a completely different subject...

Those that are loyal to Pathfinder will remain with Pathfinder. If they are able to purchase and play both then they will do that, but if they have to decide between the two then they will go with Pathfinder.

D&D will sell well in the beginning because you can't judge a game without buying it and playing it first. Times have changed with regards to RPGs and D&D. I'm hoping WoTc aren't relying on people to just jump their current ship and flock back over to the revised and rebuilt D&D one because that won't happen. People will migrate over, but it won't be this mass migration that will land them back in the #1 spot for years to come, that ship has already sailed.

I don't think WotC is hoping to steal Pathfinder diehards. But I think you may underestimate how many people play Pathfinder, and other games in the extended D&D family, that are loose in their loyalties and, all things being equal, would like to play the official D&D game, if it is good/like old times/can accommodate a wide variety of styles, etc.

I actually agree with @TerraDave that 5E is going to be very successful, perhaps very very successful - as in, regaining the throne and then some. The problem Pathfinder faces is that they've painted themselves into a crunchy, rules heavy corner. I thought that they were going to do a "basic" version of the game a couple years ago, but it only manifested in the Beginner's Box which wasn't the beginning of a simpler variant but the "easier entry ramp" (to use Essentials lingo) to the more complex Pathfinder game.

But the thing is, not everyone want an uber-complicated game. Most people want a simpler core, but with the option to get complex. This is what 5E offers and Pathfinder doesn't, 4E didn't, 3.5 didn't.

The other difference in 5E that I think will equal long-term success is that was designed, and is being developed, for long-term success - not simply the quick-fix, quick buck. It is like Mearls & Co have learned the fine art of delayed gratification and are willing to actually prioritize quality over quantity - and I think they've learned this through watching Paizo thrive.

Fair enough. I agree that the launch is going smoother. But 4E started off huge despite the lack of smooth launch. It was a couple years later that the problems became impossible to deny. So even a great roll-out won't assure 5E doesn't follow the same path. I like 5E. I don't know if it has the mass appeal to go back to long term dominance or not.

Hmmm...this isn't exactly how I remember it. There was a sitshtorm from the beginning, and not just the "Its not my D&D" or Slaviscekian PR debacles. Discerning gamers were having issues with the rules from the beginning, particularly the Grind and having to mess with damage and attacks and all that. The problems were evident right away. I think what became clear later on is that WotC wasn't able to fix it, despite giving it a kind of half-hearted shot (Essentials). Remember, Essentials was planned like a year after launch, so WotC knew there was a problem.

Don't forget that many people had the rules before they were published by virtue of PDF Gate (remember the core rulebook PDFs with the little rainbow code bar? Not that I owned such a despicable, illegal download but "I just heard about it" :p).
 
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TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Interesting conversation(s - there are a few going on simultaneously, as usual).

I think an important distinction should be made between creative input and influencing creative process. A parent company (Hasbro) can influence creative process without having any direct creative input. If Hasbro says "You need to make X amount of profit per year or we'll pull the plug," that influences creative process in that WotC needs to make sure they meet those financial goals. But it isn't the same thing as creative input, which would be Hasbro saying "We want rainbow fairy gnomes in the Player's Handbook!" Or "Cleavage on every hardcover book because boobs sell, especially Drow boobs!"

Here's an example of how creative input and influencing creative process are quite different. I'm currently revising the draft of my first novel. My wife has no creative input whatsoever. Now our marriage and life together may indirectly influence my story; and truly, whether or not she's willing to tolerate me going off to the coffee shop for hours on end while she toils away with the rugrats will certainly influence my creative process. But in no way is she directly offering creative input, unless I ask her, which I generally don't.

Now it seems that Mearls & Minions have concocted an ingenious strategy to keep D&D viable without negatively impacting creativity by creating an excess of low-quality splat books. They've created a kind of "buffer zone" between the tabletop RPG and Hasbro by embedding the RPG within the larger D&D brand name, which will have numerous avenues of revenue. So while Hasbro will be looking at the bottom line for D&D, they won't necessarily be looking at the different components within D&D. So all that matters is that "D&D" is profitable; if the brand is successful as a whole, Mearls & Minions have even more creative freedom to do what they want with the tabletop RPG.

On a completely different subject...



I don't think WotC is hoping to steal Pathfinder diehards. But I think you may underestimate how many people player Pathfinder, and other games in the extended D&D family, that are loose in their loyalties and, all things being equal, would like to play the official D&D game, if it is good/like old times/can accommodate a wide variety of styles, etc.

I actually agree with @TerraDave that 5E is going to be very successful, perhaps very very successful - as in, regaining the throne and then some. The problem Pathfinder faces is that they've painted themselves into a crunchy, rules heavy corner. I thought that they were going to do a "basic" version of the game a couple years ago, but it only manifested in the Beginner's Box which wasn't the beginning of a simpler variant but the "easier entry ramp" (to use Essentials lingo) to the more complex Pathfinder game.

But the thing is, not everyone want an uber-complicated game. Most people want a simpler core, but with the option to get complex. This is what 5E offers and Pathfinder doesn't, 4E didn't, 3.5 didn't.

The other difference in 5E that I think will equal long-term success is that was designed, and is being developed, for long-term success - not simply the quick-fix, quick buck. It is like Mearls & Co have learned the fine art of delayed gratification and are willing to actually prioritize quality over quantity - and I think they've learned this through watching Paizo thrive.



Hmmm...this isn't exactly how I remember it. There was a sitshtorm from the beginning, and not just the "Its not my D&D" or Slaviscekian PR debacles. Discerning gamers were having issues with the rules from the beginning, particularly the Grind and having to mess with damage and attacks and all that. The problems were evident right away. I think what became clear later on is that WotC wasn't able to fix it, despite giving it a kind of half-hearted shot (Essentials). Remember, Essentials was planned like a year after launch, so WotC knew there was a problem.

Don't forget that many people had the rules before they were published by first of PDF Gate (remember the core rulebook PDFs with the little rainbow code bar? Not that I owned such a despicable, illegal download but "I just heard about it" :p).

+1 (and not just for agreeing with me, though that helps).
 

The Black Ranger

First Post
Ok, fair enough, you didn't like the quote. But you did ask for a link. Maybe you can give me a link back confirming your own stance on the matter? Someone inside WotC saying that Hasbro is actively managing the D&D property, maybe.

EDIT: After all, what Charles Ryan confirmed was at least that WotC at one time didn't operate according to the information given you in your university classes. So maybe it is possible for WotC to deviate from the norm even now? And maybe it is possible for other companies to deviate from the norm?

Cheers!

/Maggan

Depends on the business. D&D does not have a good record when it comes to business. Creativity is what makes D&D and it is what generates money for D&D. With their current record, I do not for one minute, no matter who says any different on these forums, think that Hasbro doean't have their hands in this, especially with their transmedia goals. WoTc does not make vast amounts of money yo the point where Hasbro can just sit back and rake it all in without a care in the world. If they are, then D&D will be yet another failure for the second time in a row.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Mistwell?

Are you saying that was the equivalent of a Mistophecy?

If so, I would be happy if someone else does that sort of thing for this edition :)

But, as his name is Sword of Spirit, I think we need a new name for his prediction. Swordophecy? Spiritophecy? Swordiction? Spiritiction? The Oracle of SOS? Sword of Aurgury? Sword the Soothsayer?
 



DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Are you saying that was the equivalent of a Mistophecy?

If so, I would be happy if someone else does that sort of thing for this edition :)

But, as his name is Sword of Spirit, I think we need a new name for his prediction. Swordophecy? Spiritophecy? Swordiction? Spiritiction? The Oracle of SOS? Sword of Aurgury? Sword the Soothsayer?

:)

Cheers!
 

jib916

Explorer
This is an interesting topic.

Will DND 5e be the Number one Seller in Tabletop Roleplaying Books?

Hard to tell/say. The market is quite different now.

There is a lot of High quality products out right now they are competing with other then Pathfinder. Numenra and 13th Age to name a couple. Add Kickstarters to the equation and you have one broke gamer.

Paizo gives them a pretty good run for the money, Producing a small amount quality of Hardcover Rulebooks each year and a steady stream of high quality monthly lore (fluff) heavy, rules-light releases (Player companion, Campaign Setting , and Adventure Path line) . Paizo's business model has been writing great story's/adventures and expanding upon their world Golarion (Which is pretty much a kitchen sink of settings) which has been proven successful. Their crunchy rules and amount of content appeal to a different type of gamer.

Third party company (For All systems) are also coming on there own. Kobold Press, Frog God Games, Dreamscarred Press and EN publishing are just a few putting out quality products, DND5E is competing with the Tabletop Rolplaying Book Category.

The real question is. Is selling/producing the most books the most important and crucial thing to DND5e (And quite frankly DND in general) success?

I'd say no.

DND IS the name brand. Marketing and Licencing the brand is what is going to make DND5e successful. Movies, Video Games, Novels, Toys, T-Shirts. Getting attention of the General Public. 5e is an easy to learn and simple system perfect for this audience. I think with this route, WOTC will have great success.

After all my first exposure to DND was Baldurs Gate (PC GAME). I played it non stop when it game out. Years later I started my first game (4e) with my roommates , one who read DND novels, and one poor soul whose only exposure was the Movie "Mazes and Monsters". These non tabletop DND outlets are just important to the hobby as the actual games themselves.

But guess what. Pazio (And other Publishers) will benefit from the surge of interest. More people playing Roleplaying games means a bigger market. WOTC , Paizo and Monte Cook Games can all be successful at the same time.

Will the Market run out of writers or artists? Take one look at the amount of people submitting for RPGsuperstar each year, there isn't a shortage and company's commissioning Art work is always a good thing. =D
 

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