D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

Oofta · Jan 22, 2019

FrogReaver said:
And I think they would have said “you can use a bonus action to shove on your turn but after you do so you may take not do any other action than the attack action.” The timing is then clear and you don’t run into situations where you may not get to do the action that allows you to do the bonus action ( which is really the crux of the argument for why it only makes sense as a timing situation, you don’t have a bonus action to take until you’ve taken the attack action )

I could also say that since timing wasn't specifically stated, no timing is implied

Which really gets to the fundamental issue. For better or worse the rules were not written in a way to be analytically parsed. The rules were not written in gamer-speak with the syntactical correctness of a legal document.

Even [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION]'s "compromise" doesn't fit the latest version of sage advice. According to JC the action needs to be completed before the bonus action can happen. I don't know anyone that actually runs bonus actions that way across the board. If it works that way for Shield Master, it should work the same way for all bonus actions that don't specify timing.

In any case, I know how I'll run it because if you can't shove before an attack it's basically a pointless feat.

Aaron L · Jan 22, 2019

FrogReaver said:
And I think they would have said “you can use a bonus action to shove on your turn but after you do so you may take not do any other action than the attack action.” The timing is then clear and you don’t run into situations where you may not get to do the action that allows you to do the bonus action ( which is really the crux of the argument for why it only makes sense as a timing situation, you don’t have a bonus action to take until you’ve taken the attack action )

Then that would be robbing the Feat of much of its utility as a function of what a shield is used for in real life, based on the description as using a shield offensively. Knocking a target down and then attacking it while it's prone is a big part of what shields are for, and arguing over the semantic constructions of the wording of the Feat is only serving to confuse a pretty straightforward real world use of shields. The description of the Feat makes it totally clear it is intended to portray the real world use of shields as both defensive and offensive tools, and limiting the Shove to only after you attack with your weapon eliminates most of that use, as the target is then free to get back up after you knock it to the ground but before you can attack it prone on your next turn.

I think this is a case of the Spirit of the rules vs an overly strict interpretation of the wording that ends up negating that spirit.

Swarmkeeper · Jan 22, 2019

[SECTION]If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.[/SECTION]

Do the physics of the D&D fantasy universe prevent a shield shove before a sword swipe? Methinks no. If a PC is a Ranger with Extra Attack (but no Shield Master feat), the PC could shove for the first attack then slash for the second attack.

The words "on your turn" are key to the rule snippet above. The PC with the feat can use their bonus action first to shove with the shield, then must follow up with an attack action during their turn. Or the PC can use their action to attack and follow up with a bonus action shove. The order does not matter and should not matter, as long as the attack action is attempted at some point "on your turn". If the edge case occurs where a readied hold person is triggered on the initial shove, preventing the subsequent attack action, well, so what? The intention was to carry out the attack action, but it was thwarted and no other action could occur.

5ekyu · Jan 22, 2019

Oofta said:
I could also say that since timing wasn't specifically stated, no timing is implied

Which really gets to the fundamental issue. For better or worse the rules were not written in a way to be analytically parsed. The rules were not written in gamer-speak with the syntactical correctness of a legal document.

Even [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION]'s "compromise" doesn't fit the latest version of sage advice. According to JC the action needs to be completed before the bonus action can happen. I don't know anyone that actually runs bonus actions that way across the board. If it works that way for Shield Master, it should work the same way for all bonus actions that don't specify timing.

In any case, I know how I'll run it because if you can't shove before an attack it's basically a pointless feat.

I view Sage as additional info but not as binding as the printed rule... which I dont consider binding. That's why I am happy with not requiring an attack action to run its entire course before the bash. No reason that first strike couldn't be the setup for the bash.

But since I also see more uses for a shove than just the solo combat example, I see the feat as far from pointless.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 22, 2019

trentonjoe said:
S h i e l d M a s t e r
You use shields not just for protection but also for
offense. You gain the following benefits while you are
wielding a shield:
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use
a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet
of you with your shield.
• If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC
bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against
a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to
make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half dam -
age, you can use your reaction to take no damage if
you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your
shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

With this feat do you have to attack first? Can you declare the attack action, then use the bonus to shove and then attack?

If so, you can then knock someone prone and attack with advantage.

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but the wording also does not indicate that the target of the shove and the target of the attack have to be the same.

Also, the Attack action could also be throwing a weapon and not necessarily making a melee attack. Think of this example: a player declares his attack that his player is throwing their handaxe, and as a bonus action shoves the target engaged in melee back 5 feet, putting them out of reach, and then throws their handaxe normally.

FrogReaver · Jan 22, 2019

Oofta said:
I could also say that since timing wasn't specifically stated, no timing is implied

Which really gets to the fundamental issue. For better or worse the rules were not written in a way to be analytically parsed. The rules were not written in gamer-speak with the syntactical correctness of a legal document.

Even [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION]'s "compromise" doesn't fit the latest version of sage advice. According to JC the action needs to be completed before the bonus action can happen. I don't know anyone that actually runs bonus actions that way across the board. If it works that way for Shield Master, it should work the same way for all bonus actions that don't specify timing.

In any case, I know how I'll run it because if you can't shove before an attack it's basically a pointless feat.

If it’s in my game I’m allowing the the shove before your attacks. But I don’t belive there is any way to construe the rule as written to say that.

To take a bonus action you must have a bonus action you’re able to take. Shield master only grants a bonus action if you take the attack action. Therefore until you have taken the attack action you have no bonus action available to take.

Oofta · Jan 22, 2019

5ekyu said:
I view Sage as additional info but not as binding as the printed rule... which I dont consider binding. That's why I am happy with not requiring an attack action to run its entire course before the bash. No reason that first strike couldn't be the setup for the bash.

But since I also see more uses for a shove than just the solo combat example, I see the feat as far from pointless.

In the extremely rare case that a shove as the last thing I do with my actions is useful, I can always substitute a shove for an attack. I'm not saying it never comes up ... just that it happens so rarely (maybe once or twice for my 10th level character) it doesn't justify the cost of a feat IMHO.

In addition as others have pointed out, I think it just sets up rule-mechanics silliness for no good reason. I can shove and then hit followed by another shove if I have multiple attacks but I have to wait for all my attacks t be completed before shoving if I want to do it as a Shield Master? It doesn't make sense from a simulation or ease of understanding perspective.

Feel free to rule differently at your table of course.

FrogReaver · Jan 22, 2019

Aaron L said:
Then that would be robbing the Feat of much of its utility as a function of what a shield is used for in real life, based on the description as using a shield offensively. Knocking a target down and then attacking it while it's prone is a big part of what shields are for, and arguing over the semantic constructions of the wording of the Feat is only serving to confuse a pretty straightforward real world use of shields. The description of the Feat makes it totally clear it is intended to portray the real world use of shields as both defensive and offensive tools, and limiting the Shove to only after you attack with your weapon eliminates most of that use, as the target is then free to get back up after you knock it to the ground but before you can attack it prone on your next turn.

I think this is a case of the Spirit of the rules vs an overly strict interpretation of the wording that ends up negating that spirit.

It is the correct wording in the rules to not allow it till after the attack action. I’m not sure what the intent of the rules were in regards to shield master. I know given everything else about the game I and my players would find the bonus action more fun when it comes before the attack action. So I will allow you to bonus action shove before attacking in my game. I know shield master is t very strong when playing with it as written. Personally I’m okay with that because I think the damage feats in general are much to strong as written. In fact I think feats have made the game such a mess that I much prefer to play in featless games.

Oofta · Jan 22, 2019

FrogReaver said:
If it’s in my game I’m allowing the the shove before your attacks. But I don’t belive there is any way to construe the rule as written to say that.

To take a bonus action you must have a bonus action you’re able to take. Shield master only grants a bonus action if you take the attack action. Therefore until you have taken the attack action you have no bonus action available to take.

No way to construe? Really? Because Mr Crawford interpreted it that way for roughly 4 years before changing his mind. The only people who rule that there has to be a sequence that I know do it because they saw the sage advice tweet or read about it on social media.

I agree you have to take the attack action on your turn if you take the bonus action assuming it's not some edge case where you can't complete your turn. Similar to how if you use a bonus action spell you can only cast a cantrip; sequence doesn't matter.

Feel free to rule differently at your table.

KarinsDad · Jan 22, 2019

Oofta said:
In any case, I know how I'll run it because if you can't shove before an attack it's basically a pointless feat.

Pointless?

Advantage with an ability check round after round after round is very potent. It's like an unlimited number of more powerful than a cantrip spells. And it's not like most PCs wouldn't get the feat at level 4 or higher where it doesn't take long for a melee PC to get two attacks per round.

Being prone also has disadvantage on attacks, so it defensively helps the PCs. Attack the foe, shove the foe, and if prone, move to some other part of the battlefield and the foe has a disadvantaged opportunity attack. And even at level 4, other melee PCs would still get advantage on melee attacks.

It is very very far from pointless. It is one of the nicest feats in the game for sword and board, even without getting every single melee attack when it works with advantage.

D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

Oofta

Legend

Aaron L

Hero

Swarmkeeper

Hero

5ekyu

Hero

WhosDaDungeonMaster

Guest

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Oofta

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Oofta

Legend

KarinsDad

Adventurer

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