D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

MoonSong · Aug 9, 2015

Hussar said:
Yeah. Really, a warlord is a class that should not be going it alone. It's main point is "Leader of men". On his own, he's just a poor man's fighter.

Or a powerless bystander.

Hussar · Aug 9, 2015

The problem with limits/character is that some characters need healing more often than others. The party fighter is likely going to get hit more than the wizard. Limits per character would greatly reduce the viability of a warlord healer.

epithet · Aug 9, 2015

cbwjm said:
... some other forms of healing to help keep the damage soaks from falling over...

Don't forget temporary hit points.

Tony Vargas · Aug 9, 2015

Hussar said:
The problem with limits/character is that some characters need healing more often than others. The party fighter is likely going to get hit more than the wizard. Limits per character would greatly reduce the viability of a warlord healer.

Any sort of HD trigger would essentially be a per-character limit, in a way, too, as were Surges in 4e. Fighters have reasonably high hp, and thus more HD.

Then again, there's no Defender role, either, so no telling who is going to get piled on. It's another case where the DM's style is going to have a big impact on class balance. If the DM likes to focus fire, it'll be critical to keep that one character up, if he likes to use AE attacks and have enemies try to engage everyone, it'll be more important to be able maximize the total pool of hp resources available to the party.

Keeping the class functional and viable is something that has to be prioritized over making it universally aesthetically acceptable.

cbwjm said:
I'm not sure what they would be, in 4e the Inspiring Warlord also healed when allies spent an action point as well as having a few powers which did the same, not sure how to model that in 5e though since action points aren't part of the standard game.

Apart from the fighter's action surge, the Inspiration mechanic is about the closest analogue to Action Points. Everyone can get Inspiration, and you don't accumulate it. It's very DM-mediated, of course, but that's par for the 5e course. And, it's not entirely inappropriate.

Hussar · Aug 10, 2015

Tony Vargas said:
Any sort of HD trigger would essentially be a per-character limit, in a way, too, as were Surges in 4e. Fighters have reasonably high hp, and thus more HD.

There is a difference though. In 4e, characters had different numbers of healing surges depending on their type. In 5e, all characters get the same number of Hit Dice. They all have the same size pool of dice, the only difference is die size. Which makes any static bonus a bigger benefit to low HP characters than high ones. I'd prefer adding extra dice - a warlord grants you two Hit Dice instead of one, whenever you spend a Hit Die. That sort of thing.

Then again, there's no Defender role, either, so no telling who is going to get piled on. It's another case where the DM's style is going to have a big impact on class balance. If the DM likes to focus fire, it'll be critical to keep that one character up, if he likes to use AE attacks and have enemies try to engage everyone, it'll be more important to be able maximize the total pool of hp resources available to the party.

Kinda sorta. I think we can make some assumptions here though. Most creatures don't have area attacks, for example, so, it's unlikely that the majority of damage done to a party will be from AE's. Possible, but, unlikely. Additionally, most damage is inflicted in melee combat in most games. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. Which means your front line characters - fighters, clerics that sort of thing, are going to be taking damage more often than rear line characters. Limiting hit point recovery to single instances per character is an unnecessary penalty.

Keeping the class functional and viable is something that has to be prioritized over making it universally aesthetically acceptable.
Apart from the fighter's action surge, the Inspiration mechanic is about the closest analogue to Action Points. Everyone can get Inspiration, and you don't accumulate it. It's very DM-mediated, of course, but that's par for the 5e course. And, it's not entirely inappropriate.

Hrm. An idea that might have legs to it if you can slip it past. Warlords can grant inspiration. That might go a HUGE way to allowing the whole "Leader of Men" thing, while still keeping it non-magical. X number of times per day, or, maybe some sort of scaling skill check a la Truenamers from 3e (a mechanic that I happen to like, so I'm going to pimp it here

) to grant Inspiration to other characters, which they can, in turn, burn to gain advantage on a number of die rolls. Simple and elegant IMO.

GMforPowergamers · Aug 10, 2015

8am spit ball idea: what about a class feature that says X/per day you can inspire people, that inspiration lets them spend a HD and gain a bonus 1d6hp (up to 1d8 at level y, and 1d10 at level Z) then at a level (maybe 11ish) instead of per day it becomes per short rest... if the target has no HD left they still gain the d8 or d10...

2nd spit ball (I came up with this while typing no less) what about an at will inspire that gives temp hp, BUT if you take a short rest the temp hp become perm hp... then give a different ability, one that is more physical to stabilize or awaken 0hp targets... and this one there is some play with, maybe when you take a short rest you lose the temps, but for every 3 temps you lose you gain 1 perm hp...

Tony Vargas · Aug 10, 2015

Hussar said:
There is a difference though. In 4e, characters had different numbers of healing surges depending on their type. In 5e, all characters get the same number of Hit Dice. They all have the same size pool of dice, the only difference is die size.

Of course. I was just saying that the fighter's HD constituted more hps in total than a d8 class. Maybe not a lot more, but something.

Which makes any static bonus a bigger benefit to low HP characters than high ones. I'd prefer adding extra dice - a warlord grants you two Hit Dice instead of one, whenever you spend a Hit Die. That sort of thing.

Another idea upthread was to have the Warlord essentially give non-fighter allies a Second Wind, but based on their HD size instead of d10.

Kinda sorta. I think we can make some assumptions here though. Most creatures don't have area attacks, for example, so, it's unlikely that the majority of damage done to a party will be from AE's. Possible, but, unlikely. Additionally, most damage is inflicted in melee combat in most games. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. Which means your front line characters - fighters, clerics that sort of thing, are going to be taking damage more often than rear line characters.

5e has no real defender role, and relatively few ways of holding a line (other than just blocking a choke point of some kind), so I really think that comes down to how the DM designs and plays the enemies. One DM might use more ranged enemies than another, or have enemies jump the back ranks or whatever. If it turns out that a character's or characters' viability or chance to shine depends on mixing that sort of thing up (and IMHO, it often does), it's the DM's responsibility to do so. To a certain extent, allowing a fighter or other melee type to be a 'front line' and the d6 HD wizard to sit safely in the back, /is/ tailoring enemy tactics to support those classes.

Limiting hit point recovery to single instances per character is an unnecessary penalty.

I do agree that you'd need some ability to help an ally who's getting focused on by the enemy, or even just having a run of bad luck and getting hit, caught in traps, or failing saves more than everyone else. That doesn't preclude having an ability with per-character uses, it's just yet another reason to not have only that one ability that restores hps, and to have a lot of choice and flexibility built into the class.

Hrm. An idea that might have legs to it if you can slip it past. Warlords can grant inspiration. That might go a HUGE way to allowing the whole "Leader of Men" thing, while still keeping it non-magical.

It'd be nice to adapt the Inspiration Mechanic in some way, if only because of the name.

El Mahdi · Aug 31, 2015

Okay. I'm still working on balancing out the class progression (what level do you get which ability at, etc...), but I'm about 90% complete on a first draft. I've been working on a stand-alone class first. Once that's locked down, I'll work on the other ways to possibly bring a Warlord to the game (revamp the Battlemaster archetype with the ideas generated here, conversion of the Warlord class into Feats that any class could take, etc.).

Please read and provide feedback. Remember this is being done with the purpose of informing WotC about the feasibility of such a class or build in 5E, and hopefully spur them to develop one for UA - and maybe even an "official" version for AL play. If you are not a fan of the Warlord, or are resolutely against the very existence of a Warlord in 5E in any form, your feedback can still be helpful. Making the Warlord class as workable as possible for as many players and DM's as possible can only help further the goal of getting a 5E Warlord. However, if you're only interested in expressing your dislike yet again, or even actively trying to derail the process, your comments are not welcome. The argument over the premise of a Warlord is over. The lines have been clearly drawn. There's nothing constructive to be gained from continuing that argument. What's at question now is how to actualize mechanics that support the premise of a Warlord. Hopefully we're on the right track...

WotC: You can freely use any of these ideas - assuming they're good enough to use - or alter them as you deem necessary. The point of this is that 5E needs a Warlord, and the Battlemaster doesn't adequately fulfill the concept.

Here's the class abilities so far:

Command Presence
The mere presence of a Warlord within an adventuring group instills confidence and facilitates synergistic cooperation. The Warlord’s competent direction imparts a sense to all their allies that someone always has their back. This gives allies a boldness to take chances they normally wouldn’t, and do so with sureness they normally wouldn’t possess.
Once per round, any one member of the Warlord’s group can apply advantage to any one roll – be it an attack, a save, or a check – but the group must collectively agree to its use. This is not cumulative and cannot be carried from round to round; each round has one and only one usage for the group.

Inspiring Word
A Warlord builds a significant rapport with each of their comrades, learning what motivates each one of them. They know their compatriots so well they can rejuvenate and refocus them with just a word.
Once per short rest you can encourage or call out to a faltering companion and bolster their resolve; even allowing them to shake off some of the accumulated wear and tear of combat. Doing so either allows an ally to recover hit points equivalent to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1), or free an ally of non-magical fear (the Frightened condition), or reduce any effects due to exhaustion by one level.
The ally must be within hearing range of the Warlord, and cannot be at 0 hit points. At 5th level they can do this two times per short rest, three times at 10th level, and four times at 15th level.

Call of Restoration
With the same rapport they use to inspire their allies, they can even sometimes call them back from the edge of death itself.
Through a combination of vocal exhortation and physical shaking, you can attempt to rouse a fallen ally (at 0 hit points). They must be able to hear you (not Deafened) and must be adjacent to you. The ally can immediately make a death saving throw, even if they have already done so for the round, and make the roll with a bonus equal to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier. If successful, the ally is returned to consciousness and recovers hit points equal to the Warlord’s Charisma or Wisdom modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1).
You may attempt this once per long rest. At 7th level you may attempt this twice per long rest, and three times at 17th level.

Tactical Leader
A leader can unify and focus a group, making a group greater than its parts; but a leader that doesn’t have the trust or cooperation of their compatriots is less than useful, and becomes a burden to the group - a catalyst for dysfunction.
A leader may give up any or all of their actions to be used by any ally; especially move and attack actions, and including bonus actions, and reactions (if appropriate). These actions can be used by the ally even if they have already acted in the round, and may still use their own unused actions after using the Warlord’s actions. Any actions given in this manner must be used in a manner consistent with their original purpose (move action must be used as a move action, etc.).
The Warlord player must designate what the action or actions are to be used for (such as “Aleric is in trouble - disengage from your foe, and go back him up”), and the character receiving the actions must use them consistent with the direction (the DM can determine if consistency is maintained if a receiving character’s player “calls an audible” or otherwise alters or interprets the “spirit” of the directions).
Allied players can also ask the Warlord player for their actions; such as, “Do you want me to back-up Aleric?” But the Warlord player still designates what actions they are giving up and what they are to be used for.
Players can disregard the directions of the Warlord’s player (“Aleric can take care of himself!”), but then those actions the Warlord gave up are lost for the round (they still expended the time issuing directives).
If players consistently disregard the Warlord's directions (DM discretion), then the DM may decide that the group has also lost synergy and can no longer benefit from the Warlord's Command Presence.

Bonus Action
Beginning at 6th level, a Warlord’s quick thinking enables them to move, act, or give direction more quickly. You can take a bonus action each of your turns in combat. This action can only be used to take an Attack, Command Action, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action.
At 13th level this increases to two bonus actions per turn.

Action Inspiration
You can inspire others through calm reinforcement or inspirational counsel. Once per short rest, you can inspire an ally attempting an action to greater success. That ally can add the roll of a d6 to their check roll. The action that the inspiration applies to must be specifically stated (picking a lock to get the group through a door, crafting an item for a mission, disabling a trap, etc.). There’s no set time limit on its use, within reason (DM’s discretion), but it’s not a blank check.
At 6th level, the effect of this inspiration increases to d8, at 11th level to d10, and at 16th level to d12.

Strategic Leader (in-work)
The Warlord has learned how to apply their leadership skills and expanded their combat knowledge to include leading large groups. At 11th level and once per long rest, they can apply advantage to an action that a unit larger than their group, but no bigger than a company, undertakes. At 16th level, they can do this twice per long rest with a unit larger than their group but no bigger than a company, or once per long rest with a unit larger than a company up to the size of a battalion/regiment. At 20th level they can do this three times per long rest for a unit larger than their group but no bigger than a company, twice per long rest with a unit up to regiment/battalion size, or once per long rest with an entire army.
(explore faster than normal march, advantage to checks for fatigue due to a forced march, etc.)
…look at mass combat rules…

Rally the Troops
Once per long rest, a Warlord can motivate and focus their group with a stirring speech (whatever group they are leading at the time, be it their adventuring group, a company, or a whole army). Doing so either allows all members of the group to recover hit points equivalent to the Warlord’s Wisdom or Charisma modifier times ½ the allies level (minimum of 1), or free all members of the group from non-magical fear (the Frightened condition), or reduce any effects due to exhaustion by one level.
The group must be within hearing range of the Warlord, and only affects members not at 0 hit points.

Command Actions (in-work)

Individual tactics or maneuvers - based on Battlemaster maneuvers, 4E Warlord powers, etc.

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tuxgeo · Sep 1, 2015

I'll take a preliminary shot at criticism. To do that, I'm going to summarize each one of the items for the sake of my own easier reference.

Looking over the whole list so far, I see that "Tactical Leader" is far more complicated than the others. I expect that this is a result of the effort to balance this feature; but I would expect WotC to hack and slash that one the most for the purposes of keeping 5E as smooth, quick, simple, and easy a game as they can.

Command Presence: Advantage on one roll per round, subject to majority vote.

"Command Presence" seems poorly designed to me. It reminds me of columnist George Will's famous description of American Football: "Violence punctuated by committee meetings."
I would prefer to see it implemented in such a way that one player is designated as the one to decide how to use this feature. For simplicity's sake, I think the player of the Warlord should be the one to make the call: as I understand it, commanders make their decisions themselves. (However, that doesn't mean that the Warlord's player cannot listen to suggestions from other players at the table. . . .)

Inspiring Word: One ally above 0 HP regains a few real HP, or is freed from a
non-magical Fear condition, or has an Exhausted condition reduced by 1 level;
# per short rest

More like "Inspiring Restoration?" This may be trying to do too many different things in one feature.
Also, it might be better to add rather than multiply to get the number of hit points regained. One way might be to add 1d6 to the HP regained through this feature when the Warlord reaches each of 5th, 11th, and 17th Warlord levels (yes, copying the schedule of damaging Cantrips); however, that disregards the need to have this feature heal more HP for higher-level characters than for lower-level characters.

Call of Restoration: One ally at 0 HP attempts a free Death Saving Throw, with
a Warlord-modifier bonus; if saved, the ally regains consciousness and also
regains a few real HP; # per long rest.

Mostly very good. My one quibble would be, again, the multiplication instead of addition to calculate regained HP.

Tactical Leader: Warlords can reallocate any or all of their action-economy
resources -- actions, bonus actions, moves, reactions -- each round.
For each reallocation, a Warlord designates which ally is to receive the
reallocated resource and what the resource is to be used for. The receiving
ally can only use the resource as directed, during the Warlord's turn in the
same round in which the reallocation is made. The DM can rule that the group
members have been disdaining the Warlord's directions too much for "Command
Presence" to keep working.

If it's each one of those resources per round, isn't that going to slow down play?
How about letting the player of the Warlord choose one each round? Would that work nearly as well?

Bonus Action (starting from 6th level): Can take a bonus action each turn in
combat; restrictions apply; # per turn.

Really nice! If Specific still trumps General, it should be alright if one class can take more bonus actions than the general limit of one per round for everybody else.

Action Inspiration (starting from 6th level): Once per short rest, grant an
added die bonus to an action that requires a check roll; size of die grows.

Does this stack with a cleric's Guidance? If so, it's quite powerful. Good to have.

Strategic Leader (starting from 11th level): Apply granted advantage to a
group as large as a Company, then a Battalion, then an Army.

Is this meant to expand the effect of the "Command Presence" feature? It doesn't say.

Rally the Troops (starting from which level?): Once per long rest, grant one
of the following: (1) grant real HP to all members of a group; (2) free all
members of a group from the Frightened condition; or (3) reduce any effect
of Exhaustion by 1 level. (limited to characters not a 0 HP)

Quite powerful. If the starting level for this feature is high enough, it shouldn't be any problem that the Warlord character can choose which of several effects to use.

Command Actions . . . (not ready yet)

El Mahdi · Sep 2, 2015

[MENTION=61026]tuxgeo[/MENTION]

Thanks for the feedback. Some good points there. I don't want to make any changes though, until I get some more feedback. Might be time for some ~~mentions~~ summoning spells...