D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

And Greyhawk where wizards like Bigby, Tenser, and Leomund were amongst the most powerful in the world? Or Raistlin in Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms merely took it up another notch, but the paradigm was already in place in D&D.
Actually I think the 20th level Fighter, Lord Robilar, was the most powerful character in Greyhawk. Caster centricism constantly increased over time. In the early OD&D days it was typical to very strictly enforce casting restrictions, make the casters acquire and use material components, obey rules like only casting from a stable place, requiring a round per level of spell that was being cast, etc. It was actually quite hard to be a caster in OD&D, especially when the only real way to enhance survival was the wearing of armor that was forbidden to casters (you didn't get extra HP for CON, or extra AC for DEX). Just sitting on a moving wagon or riding a horse totally negated ALL chance of casting, even in 1e.

Casters that were more powerful than martials certainly was a part of D&D from the earliest edition because magic has been and should always be more powerful than mundane capabilities. Magic is power. That is the motivation for its study in fiction. Why would D&D not seek to mirror that part of fantasy fiction?

I don't see anything in either fiction or myth/folklore to uphold this. Certainly magic is a powerful force in all of those sources, but Conan is always stronger than Thulsa Doom, Grendel is slain by Beowulf using a sword, and all of Gandalf's power can't help him cast the One Ring into Mount Doom.
 

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tyrlaan

Explorer
In 4e it might well be "well, these are paragon PCs, so climbing the mountain in the blizzard is DC 28.

IMO, it would be more like "well, these are paragon PCs, so climbing the mountain in the blizzard has no check."

If I wanted it to carry said DC of 28, I'd probably make it something like "climbing the mountain in a blizzard during an avalanche" or "climbing the mountain in a blizzard while dodging the attacks of spear throwing yeti at the top of the mountain"... though I think going with the latter I'd trump up the variables even more and go full on Skill Challenge to make things interesting.

And yet 5e's ritual system achieves none of the color of 4e's in that it only allows for the casting of a few existing known spells, and anything created as a ritual has to work as a regular spell, severely limiting the system's flexibility. Given the much greater utility full casters get out of it there's much less reason for non-casters to participate. In 4e you could make up cool and thematic rituals, even ones that were tailored to classes that normally don't cast spells. 5e's system really just boils down to a concession to wizards so that they don't have to memorize such things as Detect Magic, Identify, and Find Familiar. Its not BAD, but it further imbalances the playing field instead of equalizing it more.

I hadn't really considered listing the 5e ritual system as one of the things I don't like about 5e, but then that's probably because it's such a non-entity that it escaped my consideration.

I don't really care one way or the other if it impacts balance. However, it's just complete weaksauce to me. Don't you have to know a spell before you can cast it as a ritual? I guess for some class maybe this is no big deal, but for others, wouldn't it severely cut into your spells known to try to accommodate spells that would be good candidates to use as rituals?

I can get behind the desire to merge traditional casting and ritual casting into a consolidated system, but it just feels like an uninspired tack on to me, unless I've grossly misunderstood how it works.
 

Whatever. I think you are embracing some heavy double standards.
4E alienated a very large number of people from day 1 and it was not going to be fixed with tweaks. So you need to either accept that either "productive" means big changes that may not all be things you like, or accept that WotC and the 4E fanbase CHOOSE to turn their backs on a lot of people and the bad will and the sooner than later end of 4E resulted.
I offered my table to whomever wanted to try playing at it. I never turned my back on anyone.

Again with the double standards, my statement here was in response to you saying ". OTOH you have to ask yourself with whom you sided in those debates." Why do I need to ask myself this while you are free to ignore who you sided with?
I 'sided with'? What makes you think I 'sided with' anyone? You moan about being a victim and being painted with a wide brush along with others, and then you whip out the very same brush and do it right back. Stop bitching. I never sided with anyone, I just ran the game that I enjoyed.

If you say so. This specific conversation started with you saying there was no effort to reach out. I called BS then and I still do now.
Again, maybe rather then trying to convince people to play a game they didn't like you would have better served to try to encourage the adaptation of a game that they *wanted* to play and still worked for you.

Ah, so I was supposed to reach out, like maybe by what, playing Next and giving my feedback and opinions ALL OF WHICH, TO THE LAST LETTER WAS UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY IGNORED while I got nothing but what proved to be an utterly transparent BS strategy of telling us all it was a 'big tent' and we'd get what we wanted to? Great, so tell me, where is it?

And yet here I am, I play 5e, unlike all you people who made a choice to be so rigid that you wouldn't even play with us. Here we are. What exactly more is it you require of us? eh? We took all the crap and we're still being sports and now what? We have to shut up and pretend we like it so you can feel better?
 

"Objectively examining what the real-world difficulty of climbing a mountain in a blizzard is" will have some non-zero element of consideration (as it would in 4E). But establishing a consistent difficulty where commoners would assuredly die and then letting the party see where they match up works quite nicely. And putting more emphasis on how difficult it would be for Aragorn or Conan would also weigh more in the analysis than "real-world".

But either way, the idea that you are saying "well, these are paragon PCs, so..." is a major non-starter.

I think my point is that you're saying the same thing. You are saying "well, Aragorn or Conan" could do this, and my PCs are like them, so I'll set the DC such that they can do it too. Isn't that exactly the same thing? IMHO its really one or the other, either the DC reflects some game world physical considerations that can be determined entirely without reference to the PCs or else its a story-centered DC that exists because it will further the action in the desired way.

I mean, remember, 4e still has room for aesthetic sensibility. You can say "well, these are level 3 PCs, they're not really powerful legendary heroes, they probably can't survive a climb up The Mountain of Death." Story and fictional considerations are not mutually opposed, you just for whatever reason don't want to have the story consideration part be explicit. Instead the DM is supposed to be covert about it. Refer back up to Pemerton's post about the Ouija Board. This is exactly what he was talking about.
 

I don't see anything in either fiction or myth/folklore to uphold this. Certainly magic is a powerful force in all of those sources, but Conan is always stronger than Thulsa Doom, Grendel is slain by Beowulf using a sword, and all of Gandalf's power can't help him cast the One Ring into Mount Doom.

If this had been true, dramatic necessity would have made Thulsa Doom the protagonist and Conan the BBEG.
 

I think the market results speak louder than your anecdote.
What makes you the spokesman for the people you claim were turned off?

Well, which market results are those? Nobody really knows the story there. I've heard reams of speculation by 4e detractors, and that's about it. Nobody, except possibly WotC, fully understands the factors, but I see that since 2000 a new edition has arisen ever 3-6 years (3.0 in 2000, 3.5 in 2003, 4th in 2008, 5th in 2014).

There are a lot of ways to spin all this, a lot of bits and pieces of information that can be gathered up and pored over. I think its better to stick to what we actually saw for ourselves. My conclusion is that all the screaming and chest-thumping had very little impact on D&D as a business. WotC continues to do what they have done for 15 years now, release substantial revisions of the game every time the previous edition's sales have begun to slow substantially. Meanwhile with each such iteration they've experimented in some fashion with the basic formula, to what appears to be little real concrete effect.

3e introduced the 'improved D&D' built with a generic d20 engine and OGL. 3.5 amped up complexity even more and put out a flood of supplements. 4e tried the modernization/improvement button again, plus some simplification and 'digital products'. 5e has eschewed, so far, the mass of supplements and instead paid much more careful attention to PR, while drastically cutting the budget and trying a 'D&D on the cheap' sort of business where the staff is bare bones, presumably hoping to improve ROI even at the cost of much less sales.

So, we can guess that D&D could spend more or less money, but that RPGs are a marginally profitable business. You can expand your market by putting out more product, but ROI suffers. You can put out a small amount of product, but you limit your sales. It seems that the 5e approach to PR has at least worked for them better than the horrible silly 4e PR. Less SKUs may also be focusing more sales on fewer books, which is great for them. I don't see where any of this really specifically has much to do with the contents of the books, as long as its of sufficient quality.

Really, the whole "edition war narrative" doesn't seem very compelling to me. I think some MBAs would be much better at explaining what WotC has been up to than some D&D fans.
 

IMO, it would be more like "well, these are paragon PCs, so climbing the mountain in the blizzard has no check."

If I wanted it to carry said DC of 28, I'd probably make it something like "climbing the mountain in a blizzard during an avalanche" or "climbing the mountain in a blizzard while dodging the attacks of spear throwing yeti at the top of the mountain"... though I think going with the latter I'd trump up the variables even more and go full on Skill Challenge to make things interesting.
Well, I'm getting sloppy. Of course you probably wouldn't have a DC for some major piece of an adventure. You'd have something like an SC, during the process of which you might meet the Yeti, get caught in an avalanche, need to reach the summit before nightfall to avoid exposure, etc. I'd note that in my conception of SCs there's nothing wrong with 'do or die', every straight-up combat is a do-or-die situation, you win or you die (at the very least there are dire consequences for failure). For whatever inexplicable reason the 4e guidelines on SCs indicated that they should represent less critical situations, but I don't really see a reason to abide by that. It could well be for instance that the Yeti is simply unbeatable in combat, so you better not fail the SC and wind up facing them! Maybe if you do you can turn tail and run, but failure here CAN have the harshest possible consequences.

Anyway, the DCs for whatever happens during the challenge? I'd say they can be set as desired, but like I keep saying, narrative consistency still indicates that if something is a 'paragon challenge' then it has to have an overall difficulty that matches. One of the problems I see with the 'objective DC' thing is, you don't really set the overall difficulty of an endeavor by one DC. 4e's DCs are intended to be strung together in a long series. There was never any intention that there would need to be a single very hard to surmount DC that the party would check against, except maybe in some very special situation (IE maybe you get one last chance to survive being lost at night in the blizzard on the mountain, make a hard Endurance check and you don't turn popsicle even after the SC was lost).

I hadn't really considered listing the 5e ritual system as one of the things I don't like about 5e, but then that's probably because it's such a non-entity that it escaped my consideration.

I don't really care one way or the other if it impacts balance. However, it's just complete weaksauce to me. Don't you have to know a spell before you can cast it as a ritual? I guess for some class maybe this is no big deal, but for others, wouldn't it severely cut into your spells known to try to accommodate spells that would be good candidates to use as rituals?

I can get behind the desire to merge traditional casting and ritual casting into a consolidated system, but it just feels like an uninspired tack on to me, unless I've grossly misunderstood how it works.

Well, non-casters can gain access to ritual casting, so it CAN in some sense fill the role that 4e gave it, being a way to have a limited form of magic without a caster. You could have something like 'Elric', a guy that doesn't cast spells per-se, he's a fighter, but he does have some quite potent magical resources he can trot out if you give him some time to do it. Not that 4e really emulates Elric exactly any better than other editions do, but the general idea was attainable. Or a battle captain that augments his troops with magic before a fight or during a march.

Its just weird that in 5e this subsystem is much more effective for wizards and clerics. A 4e wizard does get it free, and gets some free rituals, but a warlord can acquire rituals for a pretty minor cost, and since they aren't actual combat spells they can cover a lot of ground that might only be useful to that sort of PC, or that are never useful during actual adventuring time.
 

If this had been true, dramatic necessity would have made Thulsa Doom the protagonist and Conan the BBEG.

Oh, Thulsa Doom isn't weak, he's just not as strong as Conan. Once Conan gets hold of him its game over. Thulsa Doom even knows that, he's constantly summoning demons and whatnot in order to put paid to Conan, but even his best efforts are as nothing before the power of the mighty barbarian. Obviously your bad guys have to be proportionate, they can't be pushovers. REH's message seems to me to be however that the natural man, the barbarian, uncorrupted, is stronger than the sorcerer who has polluted himself with evil practices and civilized softness. Doom is POWERFUL, but he's no match for natural man.
 

BryonD

Hero
I offered my table to whomever wanted to try playing at it. I never turned my back on anyone.
You are missing the point.
People knew that they didn't LIKE 4E. Offering the chance to play 4E at your table is all well and good. But if they don't like 4E, they don't like 4E.
You have said that what they offered was not "productive" but you are framing the debate in such a way that asking to have the game be made into something they would like (which would demand a great deal of change) is off the table. None of the choices you permit include playing a game they actually like. That is turning their backs on them.

I 'sided with'? What makes you think I 'sided with' anyone? You moan about being a victim and being painted with a wide brush along with others, and then you whip out the very same brush and do it right back. Stop bitching. I never sided with anyone, I just ran the game that I enjoyed.
OK, this is wild double standard here. YOU are the one that started complaining about the unfair tactics of the other side. I've been saying it was equal on both sides all along. Your blinders are showing.
Ah, so I was supposed to reach out, like maybe by what, playing Next and giving my feedback and opinions ALL OF WHICH, TO THE LAST LETTER WAS UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY IGNORED while I got nothing but what proved to be an utterly transparent BS strategy of telling us all it was a 'big tent' and we'd get what we wanted to? Great, so tell me, where is it?
My feedback on NEXT was ignored as well.....

As to "big tent", I don't know. On this day in July 2015 5E appears to be vastly more popular than 4E was. So I'd say, "the big tent is right over there." I'd add, no one will turn there back on you if you want to join a table.
I already said it is absurd to expect it to appeal to everyone. "Big tent" does not mean perfection and universal harmony. If just means "big enough", which 4E was not.

And yet here I am, I play 5e, unlike all you people who made a choice to be so rigid that you wouldn't even play with us. Here we are. What exactly more is it you require of us? eh? We took all the crap and we're still being sports and now what? We have to shut up and pretend we like it so you can feel better?
If you dislike 5E to the same extent that a lot of people I know dislike 4E, then I'd say you are being foolish to play it when you have better options.
I don't require ANYTHING of you with regard to 5E and I've never asked anything of you. I'm replying to your characterization of people who didn't like 4E.
 

BryonD

Hero
I think my point is that you're saying the same thing. You are saying "well, Aragorn or Conan" could do this, and my PCs are like them, so I'll set the DC such that they can do it too. Isn't that exactly the same thing?
Nope, not at all. Because I didn't say "well, Aragorn or Conan" could do this" and I didn't say "my PCs are like them". I said I'd use what they could do to judge where the DCs should be.
It may be that I say it is too hard for Conan, so the DC is higher. Or it might be that it is trivially simple and the DC are lower. Note that "my PCs" have not yet entered the conversation and I've set the DCs.
 
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