Rya.Reisender
Explorer
The only use of that is that it's easier to guess the correct position. (As if you guess the wrong position the attack automatically misses.)
And as iserith said, it helps with AoE placement.
Not your average HIDE questions
And as iserith said, it helps with AoE placement.
An exception to this rule would be creatures with keen smell? If they make their perception roll (with advantage) they know exactly where the hidden creature is? I would rule yes, but would that be a house rule?
Not just any animal though. Any animal that has acute smell in real life is accounted for in D&D mechanics by giving them the keen smell trait.
Li Shenron
Legend
I try my chances too...
I think the Hide action tells that the others roll a Wisdom(Perception) check, so Passive Perception isn't used in combat by default. That's because Passive Perception is said by the RAW to be used (a) to represent average results for tasks done repeatedly, and (b) when the DM just doesn't want to roll dice.
But then of course the DM can always choose option (b), and you can also argue that "keeping an eye on anyone trying to hide" in combat qualifies as a task done repeatedly.
The truth is, in terms of probabilities it hardly matters whether you use passive checks or rolled checks in a contest i.e. opposed rolls (assuming at least one side is rolling), unless you specifically have some bonus/penalty which applies to one but not the other.
There are however practical consequences to using different approaches, particularly when you have multiple enemies... are you going to roll each of them separately so that probably some will fail and some will succeed? This will likely create a mess where the DM has to keep track of who is aware of who in combat, not to mention that the DM has also to decide whether those who are hiding are themselves aware of who they have successfully hidden from... I believe that using Passive Perception can help against that, but maybe group checks can be even better.
As for when does it apply, I'd say when it matters. Hiding always grants defensive benefits, and sometimes it is also used to gain an offensive benefit later, but because of the former I would rule that you are immediately hidden.
I agree, you don't need to take multiple Hide actions to stay hidden.
Yes, it is the most reasonable ruling. Just because humans have a sense of smell doesn't mean they can pinpoint the source of a scent in the same way that they can pinpoint by sight and hearing. Use only sight and hearing to adjudicate, unless the creature has some explicit additional sense capabilities.
As a general rule, if you have at least one reliable sense for pinpointing the location of others, you are granted one Perception check against Stealth.
Hidden is assumed to mean unseen + unheard normally. So in order to hide you are also trying to suppress the noise you make. Keen Hearing does give advantage to someone against you, exactly because hearing matters.
Similarly, Keen Smell grants advantage to Perception thanks to the fact that you are using an extra sense in addition to sight and hearing (generally speaking, I think Keen Smell is on the weak side... I think even non-magical creatures such as a hound dog can almost invariably find someone by smell, so even granting a Stealth check in the first place is maybe too generous, but this is beyond the point).
I think the Hide action tells that the others roll a Wisdom(Perception) check, so Passive Perception isn't used in combat by default. That's because Passive Perception is said by the RAW to be used (a) to represent average results for tasks done repeatedly, and (b) when the DM just doesn't want to roll dice.
But then of course the DM can always choose option (b), and you can also argue that "keeping an eye on anyone trying to hide" in combat qualifies as a task done repeatedly.
The truth is, in terms of probabilities it hardly matters whether you use passive checks or rolled checks in a contest i.e. opposed rolls (assuming at least one side is rolling), unless you specifically have some bonus/penalty which applies to one but not the other.
There are however practical consequences to using different approaches, particularly when you have multiple enemies... are you going to roll each of them separately so that probably some will fail and some will succeed? This will likely create a mess where the DM has to keep track of who is aware of who in combat, not to mention that the DM has also to decide whether those who are hiding are themselves aware of who they have successfully hidden from... I believe that using Passive Perception can help against that, but maybe group checks can be even better.
As for when does it apply, I'd say when it matters. Hiding always grants defensive benefits, and sometimes it is also used to gain an offensive benefit later, but because of the former I would rule that you are immediately hidden.
I agree, you don't need to take multiple Hide actions to stay hidden.
Yes, it is the most reasonable ruling. Just because humans have a sense of smell doesn't mean they can pinpoint the source of a scent in the same way that they can pinpoint by sight and hearing. Use only sight and hearing to adjudicate, unless the creature has some explicit additional sense capabilities.
As a general rule, if you have at least one reliable sense for pinpointing the location of others, you are granted one Perception check against Stealth.
Hidden is assumed to mean unseen + unheard normally. So in order to hide you are also trying to suppress the noise you make. Keen Hearing does give advantage to someone against you, exactly because hearing matters.
Similarly, Keen Smell grants advantage to Perception thanks to the fact that you are using an extra sense in addition to sight and hearing (generally speaking, I think Keen Smell is on the weak side... I think even non-magical creatures such as a hound dog can almost invariably find someone by smell, so even granting a Stealth check in the first place is maybe too generous, but this is beyond the point).
Last edited:
Rya.Reisender
Explorer
By RAW smell has nothing to do with hiding.
I wouldn't place a general house rule for this but rather determine it by situation. As said earlier, I might tell my player the rough or even exact location of the enemy if it's reasonable in the situation to determine it by smelling.
For monsters, I might just decide they guess the location correctly because of their keen smell trait. But again it's very situational, that's why the DM is supposed to determine it. The DM has full control over what the monsters do anyway, so there wouldn't even be a roll involved
Though I do sometimes roll for fun if I'm undecided on a monster action. For example there are three trees and a PC hides behind one of them. There is a monster that wants to find the PC and needs to figure out which tree to approach, so it uses its smell. I roll 1d3 to determine the tree it is going for. If it has keen smell, I might think, okay if it's the wrong tree I roll 1d3 again. I don't make any concrete house rule for this, I just decide this on the fly.
Don't think of it as a "House rule"... think of it merely as the DM interpreting the rules from a lack of specific information.
But yes... animals that have Keen Smell can be ones that the DM interprets as ones that could be blinded and deafened and yet still make perception checks to try and find the hidden enemy. But of course bear in mind that it doesn't really make much difference... because any PC that attacks a Blinded individual still gets advantage on their attack just like they would have gotten advantage if they had been hidden from a non-blinded target. So its six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.
And if by some chance the DM and players ever come upon some weird situation where both/neither apply or some senses are on and some are off or whatever... it all comes down to the DM making a call in that one specific situation that just seems to make sense. Should the enemy be able to know where you are based upon what they can do and how well you made a DEX (Stealth) check? If so, then you won't get advantage on your next attack... if they don't, then you will.
It's only one attack with advantage... its nothing to get way too hung up on, seeing as how there are literally dozens of other ways to get advantage on attacks in the game. Stealth is no more important than any of the other ways, so no one should get their undies in a bunch over it.
Rya.Reisender
Explorer
Actually the Hiding and Surprise rules pretty concretely refer to passive perception. It's an exception to the common rule.
Heh... yeah, especially when you add in the fact that really the only time its ever going to come up "in-game" is probably out of combat when the PC is running away from the guy with the hound dog. At that point the narrative will usually take over for the DM and they'll just make rulings as part of some sort of "chase scene" where the PC is trying to run away while also not getting hounded (pun intended) by the guy and his dog. Stealth checks and Keen Smell will all get mushed together into some sort of skill check melange as the DM tries to make the scene interesting and compelling. And anyone who demands "ONLY USE RULED AS WRITTEN!!!" is going to be sorely disappointed.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
You're welcome!
I'd say they have to wait until their turn to communicate with the rest of their party.
It depends if the hidden creature has an odor strong enough to be smelled from the distance at which the perceiving creature is. It's a DM's call, but I'd generally only allow detection by scent at a range of 5 feet.
Yes.
Oofta
Legend
Running stealth is going to vary a lot, the following are just my observations on how I run it.
If I think someone can be hidden from a creature, the passive perception kicks in immediately. It may make a difference if the PC attacks.
I think this is situational. If a PC is moving around or potentially doing things to be noticed, I have them roll (I may give advantage/disadvantage as appropriate). But there are just too many variables to come up with a hard and fast rule. Does the monster move? Is there a new light source? Is there a sudden gust of wind which may break up the fog giving the PC cover? Does someone yell out "he's over there!"
There has to be some reasonable way to detect a creature. To me, that general rule applies whether or not a stealth check has been made. Someone that is blind and deaf may not have any possibility of knowing someone is ten feet away even if the creature is a one man band.
There may be other environmental variables at play though such as sensing heat, a particularly powerful stench or something else like something suddenly blocking the wind. Stepping in a puddle for example may give away your position.
I adjust based on the situation, but in general disadvantage cancels out advantage (and vice versa). So in most cases the check would just be normal. However ... is this in a busy market square where there are food vendors next to someone selling strong smelling herbs? Or is it in a clean and empty room.
I think the game runs better when you simply accept that you have to make rulings on the fly. As long as the DM is basing it on the situation at hand and not simply because they want something to happen, it's my preference. D&D is not a glorified board game, things can and should be adjusted on the fly now and then.
If I think someone can be hidden from a creature, the passive perception kicks in immediately. It may make a difference if the PC attacks.
I think this is situational. If a PC is moving around or potentially doing things to be noticed, I have them roll (I may give advantage/disadvantage as appropriate). But there are just too many variables to come up with a hard and fast rule. Does the monster move? Is there a new light source? Is there a sudden gust of wind which may break up the fog giving the PC cover? Does someone yell out "he's over there!"
There has to be some reasonable way to detect a creature. To me, that general rule applies whether or not a stealth check has been made. Someone that is blind and deaf may not have any possibility of knowing someone is ten feet away even if the creature is a one man band.
There may be other environmental variables at play though such as sensing heat, a particularly powerful stench or something else like something suddenly blocking the wind. Stepping in a puddle for example may give away your position.
I adjust based on the situation, but in general disadvantage cancels out advantage (and vice versa). So in most cases the check would just be normal. However ... is this in a busy market square where there are food vendors next to someone selling strong smelling herbs? Or is it in a clean and empty room.
I think the game runs better when you simply accept that you have to make rulings on the fly. As long as the DM is basing it on the situation at hand and not simply because they want something to happen, it's my preference. D&D is not a glorified board game, things can and should be adjusted on the fly now and then.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
I try to enforce the second option, but players often follow the "talking is a free action" idea to an extreme, having big long conversations at any and every point in combat (and then complaining about how little XP they get per session after one combat takes 3 hours, but that's a rant for another day
.The perceptive character knows where the hiding foe is right now, so they can certainly use a Reaction (if they have one) right now against the foe.
Yes. If a foe is not hidden then you know where they are. If playing on a grid, you know what square they are in. I indicate unseen foes on the map with small glass or plastic counters.
This is pretty much the definition of "hidden" - you know they are there, somewhere, but you can't pinpoint their exact position.
As an additional note, you don't always have to roll a check. Depending on the circumstances, the GM can decide "no" or "yes" instead of asking for a roll. The roll is only for when success or failure is uncertain.
E.g. If a stealthy, invisible foe is walking on a floor covered by flour or dust then they are noticed - there is no way to prevent their footsteps being seen by everyone.
E.g. If a stealthy, invisible foe is flying in an area with a lot of background noise then they are hidden - there is no way for observers to perceive them.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
D&D (2024)
D&D One Changes to the Rogue...
