D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

Mathias Severin said:

We have a Bear Totem Barbarian in my group. He has basically dominated the game from level 1 to 10. Deals insane amounts of damage, basically has twice as many hp as everybody else (because Bear rage makes him resistant to everything except Psychic).
GWM, Luck and Sentinel means he dishes out 50 to 100 damage a round and can re-roll saves like it's nobody's business.

I could never see the berserker come near him in power. Bear Totem is insane.

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Let's see - three feats at 10th level means variant human and no ASI.

So max +3 str mod and +2 con mod. Sorry, not buying that they are nearly as overwhelming as you say. Unless you are playing with rolled stats and they have very good ones, which is not part of "standard assumptions".

ChrisCarlson said:

Are there really ever any winners in white rooms?

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As long as they take their meds and chat to the shrink, yes there can be.

I think the biggest issue is that exhaustion is just stupid. Why does it only drop 1lvl a rest. Issue is made worse by out side factors applying exhaustion imagine if casters were locked out of spell slots because they cast more than 2 spells so they took 2days to recover the outrage.

As for simple house rule just remove it

CapnZapp said:

Please give us more details on how you arrived at this conclusion. Thank you.

(Please note; nobody is contesting that the Berserker deals top-notch damage. The issue with the subclass is the cost of its main feature. So I'm having a real hard time understanding the focus on the feats.)

Unless you're talking about the "guide to enabling my bonus action to make an extra attack" optimizing discussion. In which case I would have assumed Frenzy, eating bonus actions, interferes with GWM or PM, which indicates the opposite of "equalizing the two subclasses", which is why I'm asking you for more data...

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Others have rightfully looked at other feats to substitute for Polearm Master for the Berserker, but I thought it would be fun to compare the Berserker to the Totem Warrior with the exact same feats and I was sorta surprised with the results. I am assuming Polearm Master is taken at lvl 1 by both humans. Also I am using the lvl 3 Bear totem ability for this comparison (I am a strong fan of Wolf as well)

Lvls 1 and 2, they are both identical
lvls 3-5 the Totem Warrior warrior comes out better for the most part but only while raging. When the Berserker is Frenzing, they will do more damage but suffer some negatives afterwards due to exhaustion. (also I am having the Berserker carry a GW on her back, and only pulling it out while Frenzing).
lvls 6-13 This is interesting because, this is where the Berserker gets Mindless Rage, so it is careful to discuss all the situations.

While not raging they both appear to be equal, but they are not. If they are charmed or feared while not raging, the Berserker can just rage to suppress the effect. On the other hand if a dragon does a surprise breath attack, both would get damaged because the Totem Warrior can not react with damage resistance rage to prevent damage.

While raging-the value depends on how you rate Mindless Rage vs Bear Rage damage resistance. I rate Mindless Rage higher, because being charmed (dominated is charm as well) or feared, means less time on target and more chance of a party wipe or even worse dominated, which could easily lead to a party wipe. Damage resistance to all but psychic damage with the Bear Totem is still very strong, but remember you do have the highest hit points in the game, so you resisting damage isn't as important as it is for others, but still it is a strong ability.

While Frenzying the berserker can drop the polearm and pull out a great weapon and do more damage than the Totem Warrior, this should only be used very sparingly because of exhaustion.

After Frenzy- Advantage Totem Warrior, which is why Frenzy should be used very sparingly, for the most part in final show downs or when a wipe might happen if everyone doesn't go all out.

Lvl 14+ Here is also subjective, but as far as damage, Retaliation is better than the options presented for Totem Warrior (I do really like the Totem Warrior abilities here, but for damage its obvious).

Analysis: lvl 3-5 goes to the Totem Warrior
Lvls 6-13 advantage goes to Berserker
Lvls 14+ even more advantage to Berserker

The key is to only use Frenzy when you really need it.

Note that this is just a damage comparison and does not look at out of combat utility (which I am very strong supporter of). Also, I do not believe that either option is just better, party composition and preferred playstyle out weigh any of these factors. I am just trying to show that the Berserker is very viable in comparison to the Totem Warrior.

ChrisCarlson said:

Sounds more like apples to pears, if ya ask me...

Your artificial hamstringing is no different than requiring a valor and lore bard to both take the Charger feat and expect a fair comparison. Not cool.

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No.

Again you reply by conjuring up ridiculous examples, instead of taking my methodological advice to heart.

You are wasting everybody's time. Good bye.

CapnZapp said:

No.

Again you reply by conjuring up ridiculous examples, instead of taking my methodological advice to heart.

You are wasting everybody's time. Good bye.

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So you want the berzerker to take a feat that is less useful to them than it would be for the totem guy, but it's somehow a ridiculous example to tell the lore bard to take the same feat the valor bard would find useful?

And you don't see the double-standard in your thinking?

I suppose, farewell to you as well, good sir.

CapnZapp said:

What? No.

I don't "require" anything of the sort.

I'm saying that to make an apples to apples comparison, you change ONE variable and keep everything else the same. Far too many posters muddle the issue by comparing X+Y to A+B.

Feel free to compare
a) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb (featless game).
b) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb, both with GWM feat
c) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb, both with Polearm feat
and so on...

THEN you can add comparisons between a and b, and a and c, and b and c.

Say, the A Barbs get Strength 20, while the B and C Barbs get Strength 18 (to account for their one feat).

So I'm not "requiring" anything.

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This is like comparing the combat effectiveness of the bladelock and the eldritch blast warlock, while insisting that they have to use the same set of invocations. So you're allowed to compare:

• Bladelock to EB warlock, both with Agonizing Blast
• Bladelock to EB warlock, both with Thirsting Blade
• Bladelock to EB warlock, with no invocations at all

But you are not allowed to compare:

• Bladelock with Thirsting Blade to EB warlock with Agonizing Blast

Which is ridiculous, because that last one is the only one that compares actual optimized builds, which is the only thing that matters for balance. Obviously an optimized warlock will beat an unoptimized one, and if neither warlock is optimized, who cares?

Blue said:

Let's see - three feats at 10th level means variant human and no ASI.


So max +3 str mod and +2 con mod. Sorry, not buying that they are nearly as overwhelming as you say. Unless you are playing with rolled stats and they have very good ones, which is not part of "standard assumptions".

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16 str and 16 con.


I did calculation last play session. He is 25%-100% more damaging than the rest of the group. Mind you, the rest is more of less on the same amount. I am playing a Horc TWF Fighter (Monster Hunter) 10, We have a Sword and Board Drow Paladin of the Ancients, and a Human Cleric (Knowledge) 1, Wizard (Divination) 9 as well.


So, believe what you will, but our experience is that he has been way over average from day one.

ChrisCarlson said:

So you want the berzerker to take a feat that is less useful to them than it would be for the totem guy, but it's somehow a ridiculous example to tell the lore bard to take the same feat the valor bard would find useful?

And you don't see the double-standard in your thinking?

I suppose, farewell to you as well, good sir.

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You've posted nothing. You can literally optimize your Frenzy barb however you want with whatever feats you want (Point Buy 27/Official feats obviously) and it will still lose to the Totem barb outside of anything except an encounter with no non-BPS damage and nowhere that goes more than 1 fight per long rest.

RulesJD said:

You've posted nothing. You can literally optimize your Frenzy barb however you want with whatever feats you want (Point Buy 27/Official feats obviously) and it will still lose to the Totem barb outside of anything except an encounter with no non-BPS damage and nowhere that goes more than 1 fight per long rest.

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I think my most recent post shows that a Berserker is very comparable to a Totem Warrior with the same feats. The reason is that even without Frenzy the Berserker is comparable. Frenzy is a bonus that you use when needed.

RulesJD said:

You've posted nothing.

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What an odd assertion to make. Are you sure? Clearly you do not have me on ignore, because you can see and respond to me. So I'm not sure how you've missed all my posts in this thread.

RulesJD said:

You can literally optimize your Frenzy barb however you want with whatever feats you want (Point Buy 27/Official feats obviously) and it will still lose to the Totem barb outside of anything except an encounter with no non-BPS damage and nowhere that goes more than 1 fight per long rest.

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I believe you may not fully grasp the debate as it stands. Because, lose how, exactly? And what parameters are you using to establish this opinion of yours in the first place? Your claims are unsupported and ephemeral.