D&D 5E Warlock One of the More Complicated 5E classes?

Tony Vargas

Legend
I would disagree with this statement. A good ruleset makes it easier to be a good DM, but nothing makes it difficult to be a bad DM.
I'll disagree with you both. ;)

A good ruleset (though it can depend on your definition of 'good' - obviously, I'm going with MHO of 'good,' YMMV) makes DMing easier, regardless of DM skill or quality (because, let's face it, there's 'good' in the sense of 'highly proficient' and there's 'good' in the sense of 'reasonably nice human being'), with a good enough ruleset, an inexperienced DM can run an enjoyable game, or an experienced 'good' one, an awesome game, both with significantly less work than with a lesser system - and a bad DM can also run a malicious player-torturing exercise with less work up-front. Where a good ruleset gets in the way of a bad DM is not in stopping or moderating his excesses, but it making them more obvious to the players. A bad ruleset provides camouflage for the bad DM, it might take the fall for him some of the time, for instance.
 

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feartheminotaur

First Post
Depends...the first proper 5e game I played I was still thinking along AEDU lines and was shocked when only my player wanted to rest. "Uh, no one wants their encounter powers back?" I asked. Turns out the rest of the group was all Pathfinder players and didn't know what a short rest or encounter power were. Nor did they care. They just rolled HD at the end of the battle and went on.

I've played in a couple roll20 games where it went "use half your powers, next room/cave/encounter, use the other half, cast tiny hut, long rest" in a long, giant loop. The second one those was one where the warlock player was too timid to speak up about needing a rest (and actually said "no" when someone would say "Everyone OK? Do we need a rest before we go on?"). He ended up quitting via a long, poorly spelled "warlock sux! 5e sux!" email to the group instead of saying anything to the DM.
 

pemerton

Legend
if you don't know what you're doing then it's easy to end up with a character that is just plain bad, with very few mechanical options to contribute both in and out of combat compared to other casters.
Are you saying one could theoretically take things (class features, spells, etc.) they have no desire to use, then complain that they are useless? Because the only way to make an undesirable character (warlock or otherwise), AFAICT, is to take things you don't want or have no interest in.
I think it is possible, in D&D, to make a "bad" character without choosing things you have no interest in.

Besides [MENTION=6801354]feartheminotaur[/MENTION]'s points about compatibility between choice and what actually emerges in play, there is another possibility: namely, that the player (especially if inexperienced) gets the maths and/or action economy wrong. That is, s/he tries to build a character who is effective in a certain respect (say, ranged combat or melee combat or whatever) but due to a poor grasp of how the game's relatively intricate mechanics unfold, ends up building a character who doesn't work as desired.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
I think it is possible, in D&D, to make a "bad" character without choosing things you have no interest in.
I keep hearing that. Have not seen it. And find it hard to believe. If its stuff you are interested in, how can the character be "bad"? Of course, first we must ask the question, "Define bad?"

Besides [MENTION=6801354]feartheminotaur[/MENTION]'s points about compatibility between choice and what actually emerges in play...
Again, table problem. Not system problem. If a particular character is functional at one table and not another, how can it be said to be a problem with the character creation rules?

...there is another possibility: namely, that the player (especially if inexperienced) gets the maths and/or action economy wrong. That is, s/he tries to build a character who is effective in a certain respect (say, ranged combat or melee combat or whatever) but due to a poor grasp of how the game's relatively intricate mechanics unfold, ends up building a character who doesn't work as desired.
Possible examples? Because I still don't see it. What "ranged combat" feature(s) aren't able to impart ranged combat benefits such that the player finds they were actually duped into taking something that fails to perform as advertised? Same goes for melee. Or whatever.
 

pemerton

Legend
Possible examples? Because I still don't see it. What "ranged combat" feature(s) aren't able to impart ranged combat benefits such that the player finds they were actually duped into taking something that fails to perform as advertised? Same goes for melee. Or whatever.
Well, I believe that in the case of the warlock there can be complexities around hand management eg two weapon fighting and a casting focus; or using a two-handed ranged weapon and a focus.

There can also be complexities around, say, not understanding whether your build (in terms perhaps of spell selection, feat choice, CON score etc) is going to be able to maintain spell effects while being hit in combat. To know what counts as a good chance of succeeding on concentration checks, for instance, requires having more than just a casual knowledge of the rules.

Even when it comes to spell selection, it is not always easy to know whether (say) a given cantrip is likely to be effective or not. Consider, say, True Strike. For many people, the choice to take this cantrip will not be so much about "Do I want to tell the story of someone who magically contemplates her enemies defences before striking?" It is more ilke, "I want to magically contemplate my enemies' defences before striking so that I have a better chance to hit them." But knowing whether or not True Strike actually increases your prospects of effectively attacking, especially in the context of relatively at-will attacks, is not a trivial thing: it involves judging the merits of trade-offs between just making two attacks (and thereby getting two rolls anyway) or holding off at range and then closing for an advantage attack later perhaps involving some limited-use enhancer that is wasted if you don't hit.

It can even be as simple as choosing between longsword and shortsword. Does the smaller damage die matter? Probably not if you're fighting classic D&D kobolds (who have d4 hp). Definitely not if you're fighting 4e minions (who have 1 hp). But if you're fighting enemies with large numbers of hp, then you might notice that you are doing systematically less damage than your more heavily-armed friends. These differences can't always be judged a priori - they depend upon getting a feel for the system and what does or doesn't matter. (Eg at a certain point bonuses to hit, or to skill checks, become less important; but to damage tend to keep being helpful as you pile them on, and bonuses to AC in some ways become even better, the more that you have.)

I have seen people have trouble building characters in systems they're not familiar with - particularly D&D, which tends to have many moving parts whose implications and interactions aren't always obvious - and then being stuck with characters who don't perform as they had hoped, because the mechanics don't deliver as had been anticipated.

how can it be said to be a problem with the character creation rules?
I don't know if it's a problem or not. All I'm saying is that D&D's PC creation rules are among the most complex of any RPG I've ever played, and trying to judge what will or won't be effective in play relative to a given set of desires tends to be far less transparent than in some other systems.

By reputation, at least, 3E is the worst version of D&D for this. The only version that is perhaps immune, because its rules for PC build are so constrained, is Moldvay/Mentzer Basic. Though even then, if you don't really understand the stat rules or the XP rules it can be hard to see what, if any, trade off is involved in choosing Elf over Fighter or MU.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Just drop it Pemerton - he's one of those (thankfully few posters) who are functionally unable to process criticism against 5th edition: it's perfect, and any player who finds issues is the problem.
 

pemerton

Legend
Just drop it Pemerton - he's one of those (thankfully few posters) who are functionally unable to process criticism against 5th edition: it's perfect, and any player who finds issues is the problem.
The weird thing is that from my point of view it's not even a problem, necessarily. It's a thing, and it's a thing that you want to have regard to when building a PC.

Another thing that I think could go wrong with a warlock is you choose one of the "per day" invocations because you don't really have a sense of how the "rest economy" of the game plays out, and (say) how many castings of a particular spell are necessary to make it a reliable part of your schtick.

Again, that's not necessarily a problem, but it's something that could happen, and I think it feeds into the idea that warlord is more complex to build than (say) a champion fighter or even probably some straightforward evocation wizards, who at least have full fungibility of slots.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
For what it's worth, Pemerton; I agree with the OP in that the Warlock is fiendishly difficult to grasp fully.

It does several quite disparate things. You need considerable system mastery (of the entire D&D system) to know which of the many knobs to turn and which not to turn to get the most mileage out of your chosen "thing". Including to know when to walk away when your chosen "thing" really isn't best served by a warlock build at all.

Not to mention that you really need to choose one "thing" and then resist the temptation to choose stuff that just sound cool without analysing whether said cool stuff really synergizes with that "thing" you chose.

You don't really get the same amount of hand-holding from the system the way most other classes work. Most other classes only allow you to choose stuff that works well for the "thing" that class offers. You don't even have to choose your "thing" because it's chosen for you.

With more time and playtesting, I'm sure the Warlock could have been improved (let's say "could have been even better" for the 5E-criticism-allergic ones in the audience). My quick idea: Start by making the melee blade cursing thing a different class than the blaster.

Some people try making the optionality of Eldritch Blast a good thing. As I see it, it's needless complexity. I firmly believe the class with EB should get that as a class feature you can't accidentally deselect; and build its options from the assumption "I'm a ranged blaster". And then, there could be a cousin to that class where the assumtion is "EB is just a distraction from my true strengths" and you know what: then don't offer it to that class.

I'm not saying Warlock is broken. I'm not saying the designers haven't managed to let Warlock do all these things.

I am saying, however, it is unusually complex and do-many-things, and that D&D probably would have been better served with more playtesting, more focussing of that class. Or class-ES.

(One solution would be to streamline the Warlock, pruning away things not consistent with a particular vision. Do note I'm not saying that would have necessarily been a good solution).

So I'm not saying Warlock is bad.

But I am saying the people that downplay its complexity are misguided, and I am saying Zardnaar the OP is definitely onto something with his initial question.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
One other thought after re-reading the first post...

People seem tothink the warlock is the simple caster but IMHO that belongs to the Sorcerer.
As has been said upthread, the warlock doesn't have much to choose between once he's built and has started playing.

While this is a boon for newcomers (assuming the Warlock newbie gets help building the PC), it does mean that any experienced player looking for a challenging complex character where you have lots of very different ways to defeat a given encounter really only can choose Wizard.

Optimizing a Warlock build is definitely a challenge, but only at build time. And it is play time that's the most fun.

Neither Warlock nor Sorcerer provides enough variables at play time to stand out sufficiently as the not-Fighter and his "I strike. I strike again"

The sorcerer's limitations feel like more of a restriction than a challenge.

The warlock could have been broader, but I feel the class would have needed an ability to "switch builds" on the fly.

The warlock has the potential to do lots of fun stuff. The downer is that you must make your selection at build time; you can't be the melee blade guy one fight and the eldritch blaster the next (if you want to be top-tier at each task).

Perhaps the Warlock could become more appealing if you could "change stances" during, say, a short rest. You'd chant a curse to your Patron, visibly transforming to any given task. (Assuming a bladelock needs Dex while a blastlock needs Cha; and so on and so on). Suddenly the Warlock wouldn't be defined as a class by all the options you didn't get to take.

That'd be cool. :)
 


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