D&D 5E Heroes of Baldur's Gate is a D&D Adventure From Bioware's Baldur's Gate Designer

Paul Farquhar · May 3, 2019

Burnside said:
Yeah, TBH it's less of a "no dragonborn issue" and more of a "not a single investigation or perception check written into this adventure" issue, for me anyway.

Firstly, that isn't true - there are lots of Survival checks in Chapter 2 for a start. And the other thing is I have never felt that skill checks needed to be "written in" to an adventure. If the party wants to hide from the gibberlings, they can make a stealth check. If they want to try and steal Boo they can make a Slight of Hand Check. I sometime write difficulty classes for skill checks in to an adventure - if I'm designing a trap for example - but more often skill checks arise from the party's actions during play.

Nor is it a 2nd edition / 5e conflict. 2nd edition had skill checks for Open Locks, Find Traps, Pick Pockets, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Hide In Shadows and Move Silently, as well as Reaction checks (using Charisma) when interacting with NPCs. You will find most of those (apart from Climb Walls) in the CRPG Baldur's Gate.

CapnZapp · May 3, 2019

Burnside said:
Okay. So having read most of the adventure, I'd have to amend my review to emphasize a fairly important point.

I don't think the designers are really familiar with 5E. And by that I mean, if it didn't exist in 2E, it pretty much doesn't exist in this adventure. Four chapters in, zero skill checks of any kind except lock picking. No perception, no persuasion, no investigation, no stealth, nothing but lock picking. No advantage or disadvantage. No warlocks, no tieflings, no dragonborn, no characters with any race/class combinations that didn't exist in 2E. No monsters that didn't exist in 2E. I realize that for some this is just fine - but it's something that should definitely be known in advance.

It's like someone wrote a 2E adventure and then kinda sorta did the absolute bare minimum humanly possible to almost make it 5E. But if you're a DM planning to deliver what 5E players are generally used to from a published adventure, burden is on you to do so. You're given fights, talking, and picking locks. Everything else in terms of game mechanics is on you to add. Not an impossible job, but a job you'd generally expect a pre-written adventure to do more of for you.

That a Baldur's Gate adventure doesn't contain dragonborn or other elements that did not exist in Baldur's Gate is something positive.

More supplements should dare to not do the kitchen-sink approach of "add everything". Less CAN be more.

If on the other hand the adventure contains monster stats that are badly designed, wonky test DCs, stories that depend on alignment, charm person or mind shielding (all AD&D bugbears that have no place in 5E), too hard encounter CRs or other indications the devs have no mastery of the 5E ruleset that would be a serious issue.

But not including stuff just because subsequent editions have added them? That is not a problem, that is a solution!

Burnside · May 3, 2019

CapnZapp said:
That a Baldur's Gate adventure doesn't contain dragonborn or other elements that did not exist in Baldur's Gate is something positive.

More supplements should dare to not do the kitchen-sink approach of "add everything". Less CAN be more.

If on the other hand the adventure contains monster stats that are badly designed, wonky test DCs, stories that depend on alignment, charm person or mind shielding (all AD&D bugbears that have no place in 5E), too hard encounter CRs or other indications the devs have no mastery of the 5E ruleset that would be a serious issue.

But not including stuff just because subsequent editions have added them? That is not a problem, that is a solution!

Like I said - for some people, not a problem.

But the near-total absence of a good deal of game mechanics which the vast majority of users would absolutely expect to see included is definitely something I would like to have known before buying.

Burnside · May 3, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
Firstly, that isn't true - there are lots of Survival checks in Chapter 2 for a start. And the other thing is I have never felt that skill checks needed to be "written in" to an adventure. If the party wants to hide from the gibberlings, they can make a stealth check. If they want to try and steal Boo they can make a Slight of Hand Check. I sometime write difficulty classes for skill checks in to an adventure - if I'm designing a trap for example - but more often skill checks arise from the party's actions during play.

Of course that's true. But there is still a basic level of skill checks one generally expects to see written into 5E adventures (for example, to spot a secret door) that is absent here. And the reason some DMs buy a pre-written adventure is exactly do avoid doing that work themselves.

The adventure in general doesn't anticipate using skills to overcome challenges, and doesn't build in any place to use them. There are people you talk to, and people you kill. It's pretty binary. Of course situations will arise organically where some skills come into play. But in most 5E adventures, there are built-in opportunities and this is clearly a deviation from that design philosophy, a couple of Survival checks in chapter 2 notwithstanding.

And yes, we all know "a good DM will fix it". I tend to judge adventures by how much work I need to do to "fix" them

Burnside · May 3, 2019

Double post, sorry

CapnZapp · May 3, 2019

Burnside said:
But the near-total absence of a good deal of game mechanics which the vast majority of users would absolutely expect to see included is definitely something I would like to have known before buying.

No argument there!

Paul Farquhar · May 3, 2019

Burnside said:
Of course that's true. But there is still a basic level of skill checks one generally expects to see written into 5E adventures (for example, to spot a secret door) that is absent here. And the reason some DMs buy a pre-written adventure is exactly do avoid doing that work themselves.

The adventure in general doesn't anticipate using skills to overcome challenges, and doesn't build in any place to use them. There are people you talk to, and people you kill. It's pretty binary. Of course situations will arise organically where some skills come into play. But in most 5E adventures, there are built-in opportunities and this is clearly a deviation from that design philosophy, a couple of Survival checks in chapter 2 notwithstanding.

And yes, we all know "a good DM will fix it". I tend to judge adventures by how much work I need to do to "fix" them

It doesn't need fixing. The structure of the adventure is quite open, with the players able to wander all over a city poking their noses into things looking for clues*. It's not an enclosed dungeon and it's not a series of linear, railroaded "skill challenges" - frankly, if that is what you are looking for in a "modern" adventure, give me old school any day.

*And not in this style:

Player: "I go into the city and look for Clues."
DM: "Roll a DC 17 Intelligence (Investigation) check."
Player "21!"
DM: "You discover that the next place you need to go to is Gullykin**".

** not a spoiler

Guest 6801328 · May 3, 2019

CapnZapp said:
That a Baldur's Gate adventure doesn't contain dragonborn or other elements that did not exist in Baldur's Gate is something positive.

More supplements should dare to not do the kitchen-sink approach of "add everything". Less CAN be more.

If on the other hand the adventure contains monster stats that are badly designed, wonky test DCs, stories that depend on alignment, charm person or mind shielding (all AD&D bugbears that have no place in 5E), too hard encounter CRs or other indications the devs have no mastery of the 5E ruleset that would be a serious issue.

But not including stuff just because subsequent editions have added them? That is not a problem, that is a solution!

Hey, look at this! I completely agree with CapnZapp!

Huh...maybe I should reconsider magic shoppes....

Burnside · May 3, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
*And not in this style:

Player: "I go into the city and look for Clues."
DM: "Roll a DC 17 Intelligence (Investigation) check."
Player "21!"
DM: "You discover that the next place you need to go to is Gullykin**".

** not a spoiler

Well yeah I think we can all agree that Chapter 2 of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is pretty much the worst case scenario for handling stuff like this.

If you're saying I was requesting a series of linear, railroaded skill challenges that's obviously a total misrepresentation of my point. I'd like to have seen the designers incorporate, into the open flow of the adventure, more opportunities where 5E mechanics came into play - and I think there are absolutely areas and encounters that could be made more fun and interesting had the time & effort to incorporate those mechanics been taken.

Paul Farquhar · May 3, 2019

Burnside said:
Well yeah I think we can all agree that Chapter 2 of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is pretty much the worst case scenario for handling stuff like this.

Disclosure: I haven't read/played Dragon Heist.