D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Yaarel · Jun 6, 2019

Azzy said:
I don't get why you guys just don't hew as closely as possible to 4e to begin with, just to get it all in order and in place, and then fork from there to meet personal preferences.

It is necessary to plan ahead carefully.

Because mechanics depend on other mechanics, once we build it, it becomes painful or impossible to personalize.

If we want ability scores to be equally balanced with each other, then we must build the system that way from the bottom up.

If we want characters that are easy to customize, then we must build the system that way from the bottom up.

If we want the game to play easily without a grid, then we must build the system that way from the bottom up.

And so on.

Before wasting energy, it is necessary to decide what we want.

Yaarel · Jun 6, 2019

For theater of the mind, it helps to ballpark all distances for weapons and spells as:

‘melee’ (within 3 feet)
‘reach’ (within 10 feet)
‘close’ (within 30 feet)

‘far’ (beyond 30 feet)
‘same plane of existence’

Far ranges that sometimes happen beyond a combat encounter:
within 30 feet (close, move, accurate thrown weapon)
within 100 feet (typical combat encounter, where opponents are within three moves away)
within 300 feet (accurate arrow shot, modern city block, diameter of many castles)
within 1,000 feet (farthest arrow shot, diameter of many ancient townwalls)
within 3,000 feet (1 kilometer, diameter of many largest ancient townwalls)
within 10,000 feet (farthest modern rifle shot)
within 30,000 feet (10 kilometers, diameter of many large medieval cities)

Yaarel · Jun 6, 2019

For 4e, it helps to think in blocks of four levels.

• level 1: class archetype specialization power (at-will, short rest, long-rest)
• level 2: utility (defend, move, detect), skill (background), cultural power (race, region)
• level 3: class power (at-will, short-rest, long-rest, sometimes extra-attack)
• level 4: feat/ability-score customization

This block repeats for levels 5 to 8, and again 9 to 12, 13 to 16, and up.

This 4-level block is what 4e looks like. (Each 10 level tier in 4e goes: block, block, level 1, cap.) (5e wiggles this block around.) In 4e, at-wills and dailies are assigned at level 1, while encounter powers are assigned at level 3, and utilities are assigned at level 2. However, in the spirit of 5e, it is better to allocate any kind power at these levels, whether at-will, encounter, or daily. This means gaining a new spell at a new spell level might be an atwill cantrip or a spell that refreshes after a short rest or a long rest. This fluidity also makes it easier to assign appropriate powers for a Fighter concept, and so on.

The first level of a character creation tends to be front loaded with extra features. In this case, it helps to think of the character as having already gone thru this block at level zero and earlier, thus has a rudimentary version of this block, plus the new first level in the class. In other words, every level 1 character gets a free feat, as well as three class powers including standard and archetype, noncombat skills, a ‘cultural’ power, and so on.

I would like to see a race or ‘cultural’ power plugged somewhere into this block. So, features from race, subrace, region, or special group, that are powerful can come online at higher levels, such as flight, a special attack, or on. One could use a feat for this, but I would rather leave the feat to be ‘nice’ for truly free choice, and build in this cultural advancement for everyone. Maybe at level 2, when one gets some noncombat feature, one can also gain a cultural power.

Likewise, I would like noncombat skills to continue to develop at higher levels, maybe also at level 2 within the block.

Yaarel · Jun 6, 2019

[consolidated into post above]

muppetmuppet · Jun 6, 2019

I'm not sure what we are trying to fix. Other than feats which are too numerous and 90% of them at least are useless I am not sure what is wrong with 4th edition.
Maybe skill challenges aren't great but that may be just because they are hard to make believable.

What other things are actually wrong with 4e?

Jacob Lewis · Jun 6, 2019

muppetmuppet said:
What other things are actually wrong with 4e?

Opinions, mostly. But those can never be wrong.

Yaarel · Jun 6, 2019

I love 4e. It is my favorite edition of D&D. ‘Errata’ that I would like to improve include.

• Make the abilities (Dexterity, Intelligence, etcetera) more salient and more equal in power.

• Consolidate AC and Reflex into a single defense. Make Perception a formal defense.

• Make power choice fluid. Where 4e had specific usage types (at-will, encounter, daily) at specific levels, it became awkward. Allow any kind of power, when a power becomes available.

• Make 4e depend less on a grid. Use consistent ballpark measurements, and powers friendlier to theater of mind.

• Build Psionics into the core gaming system as a normal part of the game. It handles all mental magic, telekinetic force.

• Make 5e-style feats, equal to a +2 ability score boost.

• More customization, swapping class and race features.

• Continuing to gain powerful race and cultural features at higher levels. (Besides taking a race as class).

• Drop the word ‘race’ from D&D, and instead use ‘ancestry’, ‘heritage’, ‘culture’, or so on.

• Include Clerics for nonpolytheistic spiritual traditions. 5e Xanathars has good wording, Eberron has good play.

• Elf as ‘type’, so different elven ‘cultures’ can have very different mechanics. Compare Dragon, Giant, Elemental, as types.

I am sure I will recall more wishes as I think back to 4e.

This is a pretty good time for everyone to post their wish lists for the 4e update.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 6, 2019

muppetmuppet said:
I'm not sure what we are trying to fix. Other than feats which are too numerous and 90% of them at least are useless I am not sure what is wrong with 4th edition.
Maybe skill challenges aren't great but that may be just because they are hard to make believable.

What other things are actually wrong with 4e?

Math. The game is vastly too bloated mathematically, and it is a huge glaring flaw in the system.

It needs less scaling of basic numbers, and vastly fewer stacking sources of static modifiers that can apply to a single resolution. The complexity of numbers, in terms of the number of sources of modifiers, or moving parts, also is one of the main reasons that there are "math fix" feats that turn into feat taxes.

Also, there are later developments that can be retrofitted into the primary game, consolidation of things like very similar powers (and just let classes share some powers) and most players I know would like to see an extra at-will power, and an extra utility power. Maybe a Skill Power as a separate category that doesn't compete with other utility powers.

Many people want to see PHB style classes that can just take the same encounter or daily power multiple times, because they don't want to have to sift through 5 powers every turn.

1/2 level, inherent bonuses, and +x magic item bonuses, are too much for generally little to no benefit.

in short, there is a lot of chaff, and it's not all just redundant or "weak" or boring individual distinct options.

Zardnaar · Jun 6, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Math. The game is vastly too bloated mathematically, and it is a huge glaring flaw in the system.

It needs less scaling of basic numbers, and vastly fewer stacking sources of static modifiers that can apply to a single resolution. The complexity of numbers, in terms of the number of sources of modifiers, or moving parts, also is one of the main reasons that there are "math fix" feats that turn into feat taxes.

Also, there are later developments that can be retrofitted into the primary game, consolidation of things like very similar powers (and just let classes share some powers) and most players I know would like to see an extra at-will power, and an extra utility power. Maybe a Skill Power as a separate category that doesn't compete with other utility powers.

Many people want to see PHB style classes that can just take the same encounter or daily power multiple times, because they don't want to have to sift through 5 powers every turn.

1/2 level, inherent bonuses, and +x magic item bonuses, are too much for generally little to no benefit.

in short, there is a lot of chaff, and it's not all just redundant or "weak" or boring individual distinct options.

My plan would be eliminate all the +1 bonuses with the exception of +1 weapons. The bonuses are a 1d4, advantage or +2.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 6, 2019

Zardnaar said:
My plan would be eliminate all the +1 bonuses with the exception of +1 weapons. The bonuses are a 1d4, advantage or +2.

I'd go further and say reroll take second, reroll take higher, or 1d4. No static bonuses outside of the basic numbers of the game and your stats, proficiency, etc. But I can compromise on a few sources of +x, as long as we keep the list very very small.