Mechanics of Revived Settings; your thoughts?

Remathilis

Legend
That's what Starfinder does too: it has all new core races (apart from human) but old races (elves, dwarves, etc) still exist in the setting and can be played with GM permission.

Nitpick; Starfinder is a new game, not a "setting" for Pathfinder and comes with it's own core rules and bestiary. It does not require the Pathfinder core rules to play, so it can get away with not using the Pathfinder core races or classes. That is a different scenario than a setting that would require the PHB to play.

Which was my initial point on DS; I think it would be far better served getting the Starfinder treatment if it wants to retain it's more radical changes.
 

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Nitpick; Starfinder is a new game, not a "setting" for Pathfinder and comes with it's own core rules and bestiary. It does not require the Pathfinder core rules to play, so it can get away with not using the Pathfinder core races or classes. That is a different scenario than a setting that would require the PHB to play.

Which was my initial point on DS; I think it would be far better served getting the Starfinder treatment if it wants to retain it's more radical changes.

Starfinder makes drastic (and IMO unnecessary and undesirable) changes to the core rules*, yet it is still called and marketed as "Pathfinder in Space" (Star = Space, Finder = Finder).

But if your criterion is "does it require the core rule books to play" then Dark Sun would certainly require the PHB, and the DMG and MM would be as useful as they are for any game.

I think your unfamiliarity with both the setting and 1st/2nd edition rules has lead you to believe Dark Sun is more different than it actually is. DS didn't have Barbarians, Monks, Sorcerers and Warlocks because they weren't part of the core game at the time. Neither where Dragonborn or Tieflings, Half Orcs weren't a core race in 2nd edition, gnomes weren't a core race in Basic/Expert. Meanwhile, Psionics was already part of 1st and 2nd edition, it was just more common in Dark Sun.


*Edit: By "core rules" I mean rules for magic and combat, not classes and races, which I do not consider "core".
 
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Coroc

Hero
[MENTION=6906155]Paul Farquhar[/MENTION] #130 your take on Athas is Genius, the halfgiants maybe resolved. I would have gone with reskinning ho for mul, but theres a different way as you Point out:

halforc -> halfgiants
mountain dwarf -> mul
hill dwarf -> athasian dwarf

But now i think of it, it would even be better to reskin halforc for mul still and take mountain dwarf with ist +2 str and +2 con for halfgiant! That is neat, you can even leave heavy armor prof as is and the stat increase fits better.


for the rest go stout -> athasian halfling
Wood elf but with int raised instead of wisdom -> athasian elf
human (nonvariant) -> athasian human
halfelf tbd
thrikreen -> reskin dragonborn breath attack for poisonous bite, put 4 claw attack Routine into one attack 1d4 natural wepons give +2 dex +1 wis
 

Coroc

Hero
Addendum to my post #133:

Of course minor alterations got to be made: Mul should get Advantage on Exhaustion checks maybe leave orcs die hard Feature i do not know about this
Elf should get movement of 40-50 (and no Special immunities vs charm sleep)
Thrikreen get Speed 35-40 leap and does never Need to sleep but cannot jump backwards or sidewards.
Halfgiants also should get Speed 35-40. Alignment shift of course too.


Determine which races get darkvision.

And of course size and Age categories have to be adapted.
 

Remathilis

Legend
*Edit: By "core rules" I mean rules for magic and combat, not classes and races, which I do not consider "core".

See, that's were the difference in definition comes from; to me the core game includes races, classes, spells, monsters, and the IP of the whole game, not just the mechanical frame. My reason is that there are and were a lot of games that use those mechanics that aren't D&D: Pathfinder, Star Wars d20, d20 Modern, the One Ring, etc that I would not call D&D even though the share a lot of the same resolution mechanics like AC and ability scores. I know colloquially we call them"D&D", but that's like calling all tissues "Kleenex" or all web searches "googling".
 

Remathilis

Legend
Also, I started playing in 1992 with BECMI before moving to 2e and playing though to today. I've seen lots of 2e and still own several box sets. I'm very familiar with AD&D, and for the record I don't feel how TSR handled every setting as it's own mini-game was Wise; it lead to the fragmenting if the game that caused it's downfall. A Krynn supplement was useless to a non Dragonlance player, and even generic non-world-specific stuff often was of little use to a player of specific worlds. (What use was the Complete Paladin's Handbook to a Dark Sun players, or the Complete Gladiator's Handbook to a Ravenloft player?)

It wasn't the industries finest moment and not one I want to ever go back to.
 


SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Also, I started playing in 1992 with BECMI before moving to 2e and playing though to today. I've seen lots of 2e and still own several box sets. I'm very familiar with AD&D, and for the record I don't feel how TSR handled every setting as it's own mini-game was Wise; it lead to the fragmenting if the game that caused it's downfall. A Krynn supplement was useless to a non Dragonlance player, and even generic non-world-specific stuff often was of little use to a player of specific worlds. (What use was the Complete Paladin's Handbook to a Dark Sun players, or the Complete Gladiator's Handbook to a Ravenloft player?)

It wasn't the industries finest moment and not one I want to ever go back to.

Emphasis mine.


I agree with 99% of your statement, however concerning the bolded part...

What use? None.

At that moment. I always looked at those books a part of the toolkit for D&D. Did I use the Gladiator's every campaign? Nope.

But I did in several campaigns, so it went from useless to relevant in a flick of a switch.


I guess my point is....I don't think the bolded portio is relevant to your point...they never were intended to be used all together. Same with settings and race/classes exclusions per this debate.



----------------
Side note: If of course, you are talking a long running main campaign setting for all the adventures over the course of years, then the problem you mention becomes severely highlighted. "Bob or Suzy" would never be able to lay a paladin.

Which could be a problem.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
...So far, all good! Based on all of that, I could see (as you do) a "Guide to the D&D Multiverse" or, perhaps, a specific AP that has a short section detailing that campaign world (with sidebars for placing it in FR, or "gating" to it, or whatever).

So, where is the difference? It's in expectations and beliefs. See, here's the thing. Do you know one way that they can ensure that people may not purchase it? If they butcher it. Why would, say, an Eberron fan purchase a Guide to the Multiverse is Keith Baker tweets, "All they did was apply the standard PHB and give us the Eberron names."

There are people out there, right now, that are running, trying to run, or want to run the alternate settings, and they want rules for it. Rules for classes and races and feats that are necessary to that setting. This doesn't mean that a DM can't decide to allow FR-standard races and/or classes (Purple Dragon Knight?) into the setting. But it means that the rules will be there for what the setting *should be* if the DM chooses.

Because, and this is really the important point, nobody is running Dark Sun (to use an example) because they love their standard Elf Paladins. We have a generic D&D setting already. And there is no arbiter of D&D correctness that will keep you from running your Elf Paladin in whatever campaign you want; just those, like me, who will say that we have too many Elves and the only good Paladin is a dead Paladin. But that's okay! I am not the arbiter of campaigns, or your table. You can keep on Elf Paladining to your heart's content.

Well said.
 

See, that's were the difference in definition comes from; to me the core game includes races, classes, spells, monsters, and the IP of the whole game, not just the mechanical frame. My reason is that there are and were a lot of games that use those mechanics that aren't D&D: Pathfinder, Star Wars d20, d20 Modern, the One Ring, etc that I would not call D&D even though the share a lot of the same resolution mechanics like AC and ability scores. I know colloquially we call them"D&D", but that's like calling all tissues "Kleenex" or all web searches "googling".

Well then, IMO you are just plain wrong, because all D20 games are based on 3rd edition, which has very very different core mechanics to 5e.

Example of a core rule in 5e: "In combat you get one action, and may get up to one quick action and reaction." This is core rule of 5e, but is not a rule in any D20 games.

An example of the many core mechanics that are part of D20 which are not part of 5e: "for every 5 points of BAB you get an extra attack at BAB-5". And there are many more regarding multiclassing, skills etc.

If you have played those games (I have) you would be aware that the feel of gameplay is very different.

On the other hand, Pathfinder has pretty much all the same classes and races as D&D 5e - so you are pretty much proving my point for me - it's not the classes and races that are core, it is the gameplay mechanics.


Actually, of course, although it is quite different to 5e, Pathfinder is fundamentally the same as D&D 3.5. But there is one simple way to tell them apart: one says "D&D" on the cover and the other says "Pathfinder" on the cover. Ergo, the only thing that determines whether something is or is not D&D is whether it says D&D on the cover or not.
2581.jpg

Notice what is says at the top.
 
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