AmerginLiath
Adventurer
Moloch obsesses over the pants he’s lost rather than thinking of the pants he could gain elsewhere in the planes. What a pity he walks around in that diaper.
Archdevil Moloch (Mordenkainen's tome of foes preview from Dragon+)
That's not true. All devils are trapped in Hell. They need to be summoned out for the most part. They are allowed to send emissaries to the Fugue Plane to attempt to persuade souls into coming to Hell, but like Asmodeous, they are trapped there. This is one reason they make bargains with mortals. If they trick a mortal to summon a greater devil out of Hell that they can't control, that devil can turn around and summon more devils. Other fiends may not have this problem and may be able to move about the planes freely, but devils have to be summoned.
MonsterEnvy
Legend
No they can freely leave Hell. They just can't freely go to the material plane unless summoned or they have a portal. But they can fairly easily go to other lower planes and planer hotspots like Sigil.
The Emissaries to the Fugue Plane is only in FR.
I remember them being able to move about the lower planes in 2nd edition, but when I came back to 4th and they had the astral sea and elemental chaos nonsense and had Baator as a planet, I wasn't too sure about if they went back to the old standard in this edition.
MonsterEnvy
Legend
The great wheel and planescape are the metasetting. We even a have a picture of the Great Wheel in the PHB.
Jaelommiss
First Post
I talked to my players and they are okay with replacing this week's session with a one shot boss fight. They have not been told anything about the boss, and they will not be telling me anything about their characters.
I have four players. One has lots of 5e experience, two are moderately experienced with other D&D systems, and one cannot learn the rules to save his life. Each of them will be creating a 17th level character. Standard array or point buy (their choice), PHB, SCAG, Volo's races subject to DM approval, XGtE options subject to approval. Feats and multiclassing are allowed. All other optional rules and houserules are disabled for this. In case of early TPK, all players will be preparing a second character who will have watched the first fight. Players are to submit their wishlist of magic items, subject to approval, including any homebrew or custom items they are willing to design. Alternatively, they can choose to take a random loot box.
To create the loot boxes I rolled up loot using the DMG guidelines, modified slightly for being level 17 rather than 20. The total collection is then split roughly four ways, and each player will receive a box if they choose not to create a wishlist.
For hoards I rolled:
Seven CR 0-4 Hoards (DMG suggests seven)
Fifteen CR 5-10 Hoards (DMG suggests eighteen)
Seven CR 11-16 Hoards (DMG suggests twelve)
Two CR 17+ Hoards (DMG suggests eight)
Reductions in hoards is to accommodate theoretical adventuring from levels 17-20 (including this adventure).
This gave me the following number of rolls of treasure tables:
Table A - 36
Table B - 16
Table C - 14
Table D - 10
Table E - 0
Table F - 7
Table G - 4
Table H - 0
Table I - 0
A significant amount of consumable magic items were rolled, potentially allowing the party of buff up and fight above their weight category. By rolling few permanent magic items, however, I expect that the party will be severely weaker than they would otherwise be after their buffs expire. These considerations are irrelevant if players request a specific set of items.
Rolling on those tables gave me the following magic items:
Table A - 36
Potion of Healing 16 (2d4+2)
Potion of Greater Healing 2 (4d4+4)
Potion of Climbing 5
0th Level Scroll 4
1st Level Scroll 7
Bag of Holding
Driftglobe
Table B - 16
Potion of Greater Healing 5 (4d4+4)
Potion of Growth 1
Potion of Water Breathing 1
Potion of Animal Friendship 1
Potion of Fire Breath 1
Oil of Slipperiness 1
3rd Level Scroll 2
2nd Level Scroll 1
Cloak of the Manta Ray
Dust of Dryness
Ammunition, +1 (Arrow)
Table C - 14
Potion of Superior Healing 1 (8d4+8)
Potion of Gaseous Form 1
Potion of Invulnerability 3
Potion of Heroism 3
Potion of Fire Giant Strength1 (Str 25)
4th Level Scroll 1
5th Level Scroll 2
Scroll of Protection 1
Quall's Feather Token (Tree)
Table D - 10
Potion of Supreme Healing 1 (10d4+20)
Potion of Speed 4
Potion of Flying 1
Potion of Longevity 1
Oil of Sharpness 2
Ammunition, +3 (Arrow) 1
Table F - 7
Trident of Fish Command 2
Sentinel Shield 2
Boots of Elvenkind
Quiver of Elhonna
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Table G - 4
Sun Blade
Vicious Weapon
Tentacle Rod
Ring of Free Action
I will allow the player to choose what spell they want on their spell scrolls after opening their loot box and considering the other characters in the party. Any item received from a loot box may be transferred to other players.
I suspect that the Potions of Invulnerability, Potions of Heroism, and the Sun Blade will be problematic. Resistance to all damage, THP + Bless, and radiant damage with every attack are all significant factors in a fight such as this. The Potions of Invulnerability expire after one minute, so it is probable that it will cost the PCs their first action. Whoever is wielding the Sun Blade will be targeted with Breath of Despair near the beginning of the fight. Moloch will pick it up, teleport away with it, and leave it there before returning to the fight.
Different battlefields will be designed for the first and second parties. The first fight will occur in a lair that Moloch claimed from a red dragon. A wide caldera, long since dormant and accessible by a single tunnel, will be open to the sky. Ledges shaped similarly to shelf fungi will be scattered around the perimeter, with walls that are steeply inclined, though not vertical. the ledges will provide cover against attacks from below, ranging from one half to total, depending on the exact positioning of the PCs and Moloch. The battlefield for the second party will be tighter, but will also include numerous zombies and geased knights to interfere with the party's movement. Neither is fully designed yet.
I will return to report on the battles later this week.
I have four players. One has lots of 5e experience, two are moderately experienced with other D&D systems, and one cannot learn the rules to save his life. Each of them will be creating a 17th level character. Standard array or point buy (their choice), PHB, SCAG, Volo's races subject to DM approval, XGtE options subject to approval. Feats and multiclassing are allowed. All other optional rules and houserules are disabled for this. In case of early TPK, all players will be preparing a second character who will have watched the first fight. Players are to submit their wishlist of magic items, subject to approval, including any homebrew or custom items they are willing to design. Alternatively, they can choose to take a random loot box.
To create the loot boxes I rolled up loot using the DMG guidelines, modified slightly for being level 17 rather than 20. The total collection is then split roughly four ways, and each player will receive a box if they choose not to create a wishlist.
For hoards I rolled:
Seven CR 0-4 Hoards (DMG suggests seven)
Fifteen CR 5-10 Hoards (DMG suggests eighteen)
Seven CR 11-16 Hoards (DMG suggests twelve)
Two CR 17+ Hoards (DMG suggests eight)
Reductions in hoards is to accommodate theoretical adventuring from levels 17-20 (including this adventure).
This gave me the following number of rolls of treasure tables:
Table A - 36
Table B - 16
Table C - 14
Table D - 10
Table E - 0
Table F - 7
Table G - 4
Table H - 0
Table I - 0
A significant amount of consumable magic items were rolled, potentially allowing the party of buff up and fight above their weight category. By rolling few permanent magic items, however, I expect that the party will be severely weaker than they would otherwise be after their buffs expire. These considerations are irrelevant if players request a specific set of items.
Rolling on those tables gave me the following magic items:
Table A - 36
Potion of Healing 16 (2d4+2)
Potion of Greater Healing 2 (4d4+4)
Potion of Climbing 5
0th Level Scroll 4
1st Level Scroll 7
Bag of Holding
Driftglobe
Table B - 16
Potion of Greater Healing 5 (4d4+4)
Potion of Growth 1
Potion of Water Breathing 1
Potion of Animal Friendship 1
Potion of Fire Breath 1
Oil of Slipperiness 1
3rd Level Scroll 2
2nd Level Scroll 1
Cloak of the Manta Ray
Dust of Dryness
Ammunition, +1 (Arrow)
Table C - 14
Potion of Superior Healing 1 (8d4+8)
Potion of Gaseous Form 1
Potion of Invulnerability 3
Potion of Heroism 3
Potion of Fire Giant Strength1 (Str 25)
4th Level Scroll 1
5th Level Scroll 2
Scroll of Protection 1
Quall's Feather Token (Tree)
Table D - 10
Potion of Supreme Healing 1 (10d4+20)
Potion of Speed 4
Potion of Flying 1
Potion of Longevity 1
Oil of Sharpness 2
Ammunition, +3 (Arrow) 1
Table F - 7
Trident of Fish Command 2
Sentinel Shield 2
Boots of Elvenkind
Quiver of Elhonna
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Table G - 4
Sun Blade
Vicious Weapon
Tentacle Rod
Ring of Free Action
I will allow the player to choose what spell they want on their spell scrolls after opening their loot box and considering the other characters in the party. Any item received from a loot box may be transferred to other players.
I suspect that the Potions of Invulnerability, Potions of Heroism, and the Sun Blade will be problematic. Resistance to all damage, THP + Bless, and radiant damage with every attack are all significant factors in a fight such as this. The Potions of Invulnerability expire after one minute, so it is probable that it will cost the PCs their first action. Whoever is wielding the Sun Blade will be targeted with Breath of Despair near the beginning of the fight. Moloch will pick it up, teleport away with it, and leave it there before returning to the fight.
Different battlefields will be designed for the first and second parties. The first fight will occur in a lair that Moloch claimed from a red dragon. A wide caldera, long since dormant and accessible by a single tunnel, will be open to the sky. Ledges shaped similarly to shelf fungi will be scattered around the perimeter, with walls that are steeply inclined, though not vertical. the ledges will provide cover against attacks from below, ranging from one half to total, depending on the exact positioning of the PCs and Moloch. The battlefield for the second party will be tighter, but will also include numerous zombies and geased knights to interfere with the party's movement. Neither is fully designed yet.
I will return to report on the battles later this week.
Mr. Wilson
Explorer
Sorry for AFKing away, but I don't check the forums on the weekend that often.
A couple of things about my party that would have to be considered:
1.) We roll for stats because the players like to roll them and I prefer a "heroic" character so minimum stat total is 72. Rolling stats is still listed as the first version in the game, but I know point buy is preferred.
2.) Three of my players have homebrewed magic items that aren't stupidly op. One is a bowstring that can add 2d6 damage 3x a day. 1 is a set of plate mail armor that can roar and provide the benefit of a bless spell for 1 round 1x per long rest. His second magic item is essentially captain america's shield which he can use as a range weapon of 30 feet. The wizard player has magic robes that act as mage armor, allowing him 1 free 1st level spell a day. I like letting the players build their own magic items, with me balancing them.
3.) One player does use a plot important artifact called the "Blood of the Twin Sisters" which are two stones that orbit her head. They have a wide variety of powers, none of which really would be pertinent to this fight except the ability to raise dead 1x a week and grants her a +2 bonus to wisdom (which brings her wisdom up to 16).
4.) My players use feats because of #1.
5.) Therefore, my players are likely tougher than an average 11th level party.
6.) I don't have direct access to 2 out of the 5 character sheets.
7.) I was going to run the encounter this week, but sadly game day was cancelled due to an injury and 2 others having yard work. I probably won't run it next week because we've had 2 weeks off in a row due to a wedding the previous week and I don't like taking 3 off from the main game because people forget what they were doing. I will attempt to run it at some point with them.
8.) I look forward to others running the fight to see the outcome. Remember this is assuming the players finally solved the social problems and are confronting the Archdevil. Or, if you choose to have other minions with him via his charms or undead raising ways, please assume the players have taken the necessary precautions, like scrying on devil's base of operations before entering the fight, prebuffing with 1 off potions, etc.
A couple of things about my party that would have to be considered:
1.) We roll for stats because the players like to roll them and I prefer a "heroic" character so minimum stat total is 72. Rolling stats is still listed as the first version in the game, but I know point buy is preferred.
2.) Three of my players have homebrewed magic items that aren't stupidly op. One is a bowstring that can add 2d6 damage 3x a day. 1 is a set of plate mail armor that can roar and provide the benefit of a bless spell for 1 round 1x per long rest. His second magic item is essentially captain america's shield which he can use as a range weapon of 30 feet. The wizard player has magic robes that act as mage armor, allowing him 1 free 1st level spell a day. I like letting the players build their own magic items, with me balancing them.
3.) One player does use a plot important artifact called the "Blood of the Twin Sisters" which are two stones that orbit her head. They have a wide variety of powers, none of which really would be pertinent to this fight except the ability to raise dead 1x a week and grants her a +2 bonus to wisdom (which brings her wisdom up to 16).
4.) My players use feats because of #1.
5.) Therefore, my players are likely tougher than an average 11th level party.
6.) I don't have direct access to 2 out of the 5 character sheets.
7.) I was going to run the encounter this week, but sadly game day was cancelled due to an injury and 2 others having yard work. I probably won't run it next week because we've had 2 weeks off in a row due to a wedding the previous week and I don't like taking 3 off from the main game because people forget what they were doing. I will attempt to run it at some point with them.
8.) I look forward to others running the fight to see the outcome. Remember this is assuming the players finally solved the social problems and are confronting the Archdevil. Or, if you choose to have other minions with him via his charms or undead raising ways, please assume the players have taken the necessary precautions, like scrying on devil's base of operations before entering the fight, prebuffing with 1 off potions, etc.
E
Elderbrain
Guest
It does NOT require polytheistic religion, it ALLOWS for it - an important distinction. The DM and Players are perfectly free to decide that in their game, there is only one God, that this God created everything (Humans, Elves, Orcs, etc.) and that there are no other sources of Divine power in their game world. (If demons, devils, or "false gods" exist in the campaign, they could have Warlocks.) The fact that Clerics can pick from different Cleric Domains in no way requires a separate deity for each Domain. Multiple deities are presented in the game as OPTIONS to provide VARIETY and entertainment, just as there are a variety of Races and Character Classes to choose from, and their presence in the books in no way forces anybody to use all of them. Bear in mind that Gary Gygax was himself a Christian when he was writing (or signing off on) books like Deities and Demigods. There's no sinister agenda here.Writing the Cleric class in such a way as to EXCLUDE polytheism would be like writing the Fighter class in such a way as to allow only, say, medieval knights, and not Samurai.
Anyway, I find it ironic that you bash D&D for including polytheism, then insist the game should include "a diversity of religious outlooks" which pretty much sums up polytheism...
Last edited:
Chaosmancer
Legend
Yaarel has had this discussion with a lot of people over a lot of threads.
No one is really going to come out ahead by trying to rehash the same discussions yet again. Just let it lie, I say.
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