In Defense of Milestone Leveling

CleverNickName · Mar 4, 2019

[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION], [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], [MENTION=6921763]DM Dave1[/MENTION]: Is "DM fiat leveling" even a bad thing? The DM controls how many battles occur and when, and determines how many monsters are in each...therefore, the DM fully controls XP already. Any control the player has over XP is purely an illusion.

Milestone leveling might break the illusion, but it's not like the concept is new...

Satyrn · Mar 4, 2019

Well, robus did say he found it unsatisfying.

We've used it in the past, and I was fine with it, but then another DM went back to handing out XP, and I was fine with that, too. But now we're back to what looks like DM fiat, and I'm finding it unsatisfying this time.

akr71 · Mar 4, 2019

CleverNickName said:
I didn't think about the "visible progress" that tracking XP can provide...as a player I really like the little feelings of accomplishment and kudos that the DM gives out. Getting them all at once might feel a little hollow, especially if it takes several gaming sessions to see any progress of any kind.

I'll have to think about this a little more, and try to find a way to provide that same feel. Switching to milestone XP (instead of milestone leveling) might be the way to go.

I think there is room for a hybrid XP/milestone system. I've sort of adopted one with my group - I have an idea on where the next milestone is and based on progress toward that milestone, I will award a chunk of XP. A sandbox campaign can make this increasingly difficult, but if the players give you a clear indication on what their goals are, it isn't that much harder to sort out. If their objectives switch unexpectedly, it might take me a couple of days to rework the 'mini-milestones' but it isn't rocket science.

iserith · Mar 4, 2019

CleverNickName said:
[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION], [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], [MENTION=6921763]DM Dave1[/MENTION]: Is "DM fiat leveling" even a bad thing? The DM controls how many battles occur and when, and determines how many monsters are in each...therefore, the DM fully controls XP already. Any control the player has over XP is purely an illusion.

That is not necessarily so, depending on how the game is structured. In a fairly-open sandbox campaign or simply a location-based adventure, the DM may set which monsters are where and how much XP they are worth, but it's on the players to engage with them in a way that gets them XP (however that is set up in the game). The DM doesn't actually know with certainty how much XP a group will collect in such a game - the players may choose to skip or avoid certain challenges.

Merudo · Mar 4, 2019

My main issue with "Milestone Leveling" is that it discourages creativity.

Instead of figuring interesting ways to change the world, the PCs will tend to stick to actions that are expected to reward Minestone levels.

This often means blindly and sheepishly following storyline hooks.

Swarmkeeper · Mar 4, 2019

iserith said:
I would say it only meets the threshold of "DM fiat leveling" when the standards by which a player earns a level is not made clear in advance. To my mind, "get XP for killing monsters," "get XP for completing a quest," and "get XP for showing up to X number of sessions" are not examples of fiat in this context. They are specific metrics by which the player can make decisions, rather than the DM going "Eh, I feel like you should level up now."

CleverNickName said:
@robus, @iserith, @DM Dave1: Is "DM fiat leveling" even a bad thing? The DM controls how many battles occur and when, and determines how many monsters are in each...therefore, the DM fully controls XP already. Any control the player has over XP is purely an illusion.

Milestone leveling might break the illusion, but it's not like the concept is new...

DM Dave1 said:
In any case, I think any and all permutations of XP/leveling can work, as long as the DM makes it clear at Session 0.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, [MENTION=50987]CleverNickName[/MENTION] and we may be painting with too broad a brush to call several styles "DM Fiat".

I think [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] nailed it: Make it clear in advance by what metrics the PCs gain levels. Then the whole "DM fiat pejorative" goes away. Even if the DM says up front: "you gain levels when I say so" (perhaps the only true DM Fiat style). If all the players are on board with that loosey gooseyness, well that's fine for that table - even if that's a leveling style I'm definitely pretty sure most of us probably wouldn't go for.

The Crimson Binome · Mar 4, 2019

CleverNickName said:
Is "DM fiat leveling" even a bad thing? The DM controls how many battles occur and when, and determines how many monsters are in each...therefore, the DM fully controls XP already. Any control the player has over XP is purely an illusion.

The DM populates the world with monsters, but the players control where they go, and who they engage against. The PCs are the ones who choose whether to visit the land of vampires or the land of goblins, and they control whether they head toward population centers or wilderness.

As long as the DM is obligated to be fair and impartial, they have far less control over what happens than any of the players do.

iserith · Mar 4, 2019

Merudo said:
My main issue with "Milestone Leveling" is that it discourages creativity.

Instead of figuring interesting ways to change the world, the PCs will tend to stick to actions that are expected to reward Minestone levels.

This often means blindly and sheepishly following storyline hooks.

However one may feel about event-based adventures (aka "plot-based adventures"), incentivizing following the plot is going to naturally lead to better outcomes than not doing so if the DM is running an event-based adventure. Thus, milestone XP or "milestone leveling" - provided we're not actually talking about "DM fiat leveling" - is a good tool here.

As for discouraging creativity, I would suggest the opposite may be true. If character advancement is tied to overcoming a particular challenge or participating in particular events, then the players can certainly work to figure out how to achieve that creatively. Assuming the DM has not prescribed a single solution, creativity can be applied to reach one.

Bawylie · Mar 4, 2019

I think if you’re going to do milestones, you actually have to set them and flag them as rewardable. And you’ll also have to flag optional stuff for additional rewards.

Something like: “Quest: Retrieve the Maguffin from the goblin encampment for a BIG REWARD.” Pair that with optional stuff like “Bonuses: obtain the Maguffin without being detected by the goblins for a small reward. Defeat the goblin chief for a small reward. Rescue any hostages for a small reward.”

Something LIKE that. Exactly what isn’t important - what matters is that the players’ decisions, choices, and actions achieve the award.

If you just go with DM fiat as “milestone” leveling, then it can feel to some players that the decisions aren’t meaningful and carry less weight.

IMO they play better when their actions have consequences (for good or ill).

Satyrn · Mar 4, 2019

Satyrn said:
We've used [DM Fiat Levelling] in the past, and I was fine with it, but then another DM went back to handing out XP, and I was fine with that, too. But now we're back to what looks like DM fiat, and I'm finding it unsatisfying this time.

I want to add to this.

Although I actually found this less-satisfying than gaining XP during our last session, my last session of play was still immensely fun.

Gaining XP and leveling is such a tiny part of what playing this game is about for me, which is why I said in my first post of this thread that I really don't care what system is used.

In Defense of Milestone Leveling

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing

Satyrn

First Post

akr71

Hero

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Merudo

Explorer

Swarmkeeper

Hero

The Crimson Binome

Hero

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Bawylie

A very OK person

Satyrn

First Post

Similar Threads