Coming in May: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes! [UPDATED!]

gyor said:

I'm not talking indepth, maybe just an appendix to fill in the blanks.

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17 pages of god names. That's actually doesn't sound too farfetched.

My expectations for this book would be higher if it weren't for Xanathar's Guide and its pages and pages of filler.

Remathilis said:

So I got thinking...

The book is called the Tome of FOES. Not conflicts, wars, or planes, FOES. I have a feeling we're looking at something less like MotP and more like Elder Evils; a collection of powerful, mostly planar, threats that can serve as antagonists for a variety of games. So, it might take a particular foe or faction (lets say, devils) and discuss the Lords of the Nine, Baator/Hell, cults, new devils, tiefling bloodlines, and maybe a stray feat or spell. Lather rinse repeat for a variety of classic D&D foes.

* Vaalakith the Lich Queen and the Githyanki (with mentions to Ithilids and the GIthzerai)

* The Raven Queen and Shadar-kai

* Asmodeus and the Devils of Baator

* Torag, the King Who Crawls

* The Demon Princes (esp those not mentioned/statted in OOtA)

* Lolth and the Drow

* The Queen of Air and Darkness and the Unseelie Fey

* Tharizdun

Beyond that, there is still plenty of options: The Archomental princes, Tiamat, Iuz, Vecna, Kyuss, the list goes on and on without even really touching any specific prime world.

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I was thinking along these lines as well. Then you take the Foes and use them to expand on the lore of the specific planes they reside on and their lairs in those realms (which serve as sort of drop in high level dungeon adventures) along with 8-10 minions plus a material plane cult per foe. I'd expect to see not just evil "Foes" but good aligned ones as well.

gyor said:

Planetouched subrace speculation:

Shadowfell: Shadar Kai
Archon: Bladelings
Far Realms: Foul Born
Hell: Hellbred
Mechanus:???
Limbo:???
Upper Planes:???
Other Lower Planes: ???
Inner Planes: ???
Feywild: Feytouched.

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That seems like the type of grid filling design they're trying to avoid doing.

dalisprime said:

So I may have missed something since the 4th ed, but I thought Asmodeus ended the Blood War when he plunged the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. Has it reignited in 5th ed?

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The 4e cosmology and lore changes are kinda being ignored.

The Realms specific ones are being rolled back in-world with the Sundering story and generally justified. But for the larger stuff beyond the Realms they're just acting like the lore changes never happened. Because there were sooo many changes given no in-Universe explanation: the creation of the Shaodwfell & Feywild, where Yugoloths went, why certain demons/devils switched "sides", what happened to the individual elemental planes, etc. Even when they did explain things (Asmodeus became a god and moved the Abyss) it often created more questions (How come gods hadn't done that before? Didn't the gods living in the Abyss object? How did that stop the Blood War when Hell and the Abyss weren't physically touching anyway?)

Since 5e has reverted back to the 1e cosmology with a few 4e nods (the Elemental Chaos as the intersection of elemental planes, the Feywild & Shadowfell) the Abyss is back to being part of the Great Wheel and is no longer part of the Elemental Chaos. And things like the Blood War have reignited... if it ever really ceased.

Because, getting rid of the Blood War was dumb.
Okay, a lot of people don't like it. Which is fine. They don't need to use that particular story seed. It just never comes up in their game. That's cool. Which is easy because it's off in the Outer Planes. You're not making any changes, just not using something that is there. But it's still there for people who do want it, who do like it.
But saying the Blood War is over takes it away from its fans. They have to actively change the story of the game and ignore canon.

Jester David said:

That seems like the type of grid filling design they're trying to avoid doing.


The 4e cosmology and lore changes are kinda being ignored.

The Realms specific ones are being rolled back in-world with the Sundering story and generally justified. But for the larger stuff beyond the Realms they're just acting like the lore changes never happened. Because there were sooo many changes given no in-Universe explanation: the creation of the Shaodwfell & Feywild, where Yugoloths went, why certain demons/devils switched "sides", what happened to the individual elemental planes, etc. Even when they did explain things (Asmodeus became a god and moved the Abyss) it often created more questions (How come gods hadn't done that before? Didn't the gods living in the Abyss object? How did that stop the Blood War when Hell and the Abyss weren't physically touching anyway?)

Since 5e has reverted back to the 1e cosmology with a few 4e nods (the Elemental Chaos as the intersection of elemental planes, the Feywild & Shadowfell) the Abyss is back to being part of the Great Wheel and is no longer part of the Elemental Chaos. And things like the Blood War have reignited... if it ever really ceased.

Because, getting rid of the Blood War was dumb.
Okay, a lot of people don't like it. Which is fine. They don't need to use that particular story seed. It just never comes up in their game. That's cool. Which is easy because it's off in the Outer Planes. You're not making any changes, just not using something that is there. But it's still there for people who do want it, who do like it.
But saying the Blood War is over takes it away from its fans. They have to actively change the story of the game and ignore canon.

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For most settings 4e really never did happen, it only effected the Forgotten Realms, Darksun, Eberron, and the Nentir Vale Settings anf the yransitive settings of Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer 4e never really did anything with Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Birthright, Known World, etc..., so for them its no change.

gyor said:

For most settings 4e really never did happen, it only effected the Forgotten Realms, Darksun, Eberron, and the Nentir Vale Settings anf the yransitive settings of Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer 4e never really did anything with Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Birthright, Known World, etc..., so for them its no change.

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Elements like the planes were beyond the settings. Things like succubi ceasing to be demons and instead becoming devils affected things irrelevant of setting, and would have nothing to do with the Spellplague or the Sundering.
And would have affected games set in Greyhawk and Dragonlance and homebrew campaign settings.

Generally speaking, it’s best to throw ideas out there that people may use in their game, or to inspire them to create their own ideas. If those ideas aren’t of interest to a particular player or group, then it’s easy for them to ignore. The Blood War is a good example. The Gith-Illithid War is, as well. A DM doesn’t have to use the elements of those concepts in order to use demons and devils, or githyanki, githzerai, and mind flayers.

I think that’s the approah 5E is taking. They don’t want to detail everything. They want to offer some ideas which can be used or not by each group.

satbunny said:

Really?

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No, Jeremy Crawford said it'll be 256 pages on Twitter. So the Penguin product page is wrong.

Prakriti said:

No, Jeremy Crawford said it'll be 256 pages on Twitter. So the Penguin product page is wrong.

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Anyone who has been following Sage Advice knows to take anything Jeremy Crawford says on Twitter with a pinch of salt.

Sorcerers Apprentice said:

Anyone who has been following Sage Advice knows to take anything Jeremy Crawford says on Twitter with a pinch of salt.

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I doubt he would put out something so factual as the page count of an upcoming product (and doing so to correct the page count listed elsewhere) unless it were true; and, if not true, without a quick retraction by himself or by someone else from WotC. As it's been over 48 hours without said retraction, I'm going to have to believe the sodium chloride will be unnecessary...

Anybody know what time the update will happen tomorrow?