War forged AC again! Using as is but bad guys need some help!

HawaiiSteveO · Sep 14, 2018

OK lots of virtual ink spilled on this, numbers crunched etc still not convinced.

Great PC I really like in my party, although juggernaut forge domain cleric AC 20 (+2 for shield) and goes up to AC 22 with Shield of Faith, all this at 3rd level.

Putting debate to the side and for now playing it as is . . . wow. Any CR appropriate critter with rudimentary intelligence is going to know not to even bother.

Short of constantly using monsters with pack tactics, area effect spells, hold person (bad idea on cleric as save is WIS) constant use of prone, etc makes the WF near impossible to hit.

Using RAW what are some other things bad guys would have come up with when going against a juggernaut WF?

It may or may not even out at higher levels, but that doesn't much help my bad guys right now

!

Swarmkeeper · Sep 14, 2018

Rust monsters and the Heat Metal spell. :devil:

MonkeezOnFire · Sep 14, 2018

You can start using more things that do damage even on a successful save. I recently had a section of dungeon that was filled with dragonborn soldiers. The first round of combat involved the front line opening with their breath weapon attacks. I just added the breath weapon feature of the PC race to the hobgoblin stat block and it worked out pretty well.

ad_hoc · Sep 14, 2018

Unless the entire party is like that it doesn't matter.

Unless they are fighting zombies or oozes, it is very easy to just walk around characters and attack those without defenses.

This does make the cleric really good at Spirit Guardians but that's fine.

Caliban · Sep 14, 2018

Enemy cleric with War Domain and Nets. (Channel divinity for +10 attack helps a lot.)

Opponents using Athletic checks to grapple and prone the high AC guy.
Just ignoring the high AC guy to focus on softer targets.

tglassy · Sep 14, 2018

What I read was "This character has one really high defense against one type of attack, so how do I hit him without attacking him with every other type of attack there is?"

You're not going to be able to. Any creature with less than a +3 to attack will not be able to hit except on a nat 20. Creatures with a +5 will only have a 10-15% chance of hitting him. Heck, even a giant will only have a 50% chance. This is how beefy juggernauts work. They don't get hit much by weapons.

You're going to have to use all the other ways to hurt people to do it. Don't just up the bad guy's attack bonus. That's cheap. Think smart.

Saving throws, grappling, ignoring him and attacking others, high physical defense characters need to be attacked by something other than physical weapons. Just like you don't target a bard or sorcerer with Charisma saves, or Clerics and Druids with Wisdom saves. You have to target their weaknesses.

And then you can just do what I've been doing. Stop sending low level bad guys at them. The level of CR that the party is capable of taking on is much, much higher than the DMG suggests.

HawaiiSteveO · Sep 14, 2018

Caliban said:
Enemy cleric with War Domain and Nets. (Channel divinity for +10 attack helps a lot.)

Ohh I like this one thanks! Instant villain!

Caliban · Sep 14, 2018

HawaiiSteveO said:
Ohh I like this one thanks! Instant villain!

If you are using feats, give the cleric Sharpshooter so they can throw the net at 10 and 15 feet without disadvantage. (Nets are ranged weapons).

I have a character I made with this theme - they throw the net, and then bonus action (also from the war domain) throw a dart with the -5 att/+10 damage from sharpshooter. (Because darts are also ranged weapons).

Channel divinity on whichever attack is needed.

Paul Farquhar · Sep 14, 2018

HawaiiSteveO said:
Great PC I really like in my party, although juggernaut forge domain cleric AC 20 (+2 for shield) and goes up to AC 22 with Shield of Faith, all this at 3rd level.

It's not that hard to achieve if you build around maximising AC. My Eldritch Knight had an AC of 21/26 with Shield at level 3 (the party pooled funds to buy the full plate).

It's best to assume that there will be one party member with a stupid-high AC, and design encounters accordingly. One reason I don't go in for "hordes of goblins" when designing low level encounters.

Also, remember at level 3 you can go up to CR 7, so you could have something like a hill giant - CR 5, +8 attack. Owlbears are CR 3 and +7 attack. You could throw a couple of those at the party.

smbakeresq · Sep 14, 2018

HawaiiSteveO said:
OK lots of virtual ink spilled on this, numbers crunched etc still not convinced.

Great PC I really like in my party, although juggernaut forge domain cleric AC 20 (+2 for shield) and goes up to AC 22 with Shield of Faith, all this at 3rd level.

Putting debate to the side and for now playing it as is . . . wow. Any CR appropriate critter with rudimentary intelligence is going to know not to even bother.

Short of constantly using monsters with pack tactics, area effect spells, hold person (bad idea on cleric as save is WIS) constant use of prone, etc makes the WF near impossible to hit.

Using RAW what are some other things bad guys would have come up with when going against a juggernaut WF?

It may or may not even out at higher levels, but that doesn't much help my bad guys right now !

Your example highlights a common problem with group dynamics. As a tank you want to take hits for others with less HP and armor, but if you make your high AC obvious to any intelligent creature they don’t attack you at all, they attack softies. You just end up dying last. It’s a dilemma.

You could just always ignore them and then attack others and just tell players “They see your obvious heavy armor so ignore you to go after others.”

War forged AC again! Using as is but bad guys need some help!

HawaiiSteveO

Blistering Barnacles!

Swarmkeeper

Hero

MonkeezOnFire

Adventurer

ad_hoc

(they/them)

Caliban

Rules Monkey

tglassy

Adventurer

HawaiiSteveO

Blistering Barnacles!

Caliban

Rules Monkey

Paul Farquhar

Legend

smbakeresq

Explorer

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