D&D 5E [D&D 5e] Level 1 Max Min Fun DPR and AC

ClaytonCross · Jun 21, 2017

CTurbo said:
Of course the War Cleric would only be able to use it's bonus action attack 3 times at level one per long rest. I am currently playing a Tempest Cleric and being able to deal 2d8 damage as a reaction x3 in addition to my 2d6+3 greatsword on my turn easily makes me the highest DPR character of the group so far. I can also max that 2d8 damage once per.

Ok, Lets take a look.

Human Variant Tempest Cleric (Possible AC16)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Wrath of the Storm: Reaction damage, Dex save for half (2d6 + 13)(2d8)
Non-crit Damage: 17-31 (No Opportunity Attacks)

So its good and Very comparable to the Rogue and Monk.
Part of it is thought, you don't control the reaction or the save to it, ultimately it is most like the War Cleric.
If your comparing Tempests Min/Max of 17-31 using the reaction, to the War Cleric's 32-58 then you need to remember it can skill use its reaction for opportunity attacks..
which would make War Cleric 37-71 to Tempest 17-31 and its not even close, however...
While unreliable, it is more reliable than the War Cleric.

As an alternate if your not going for max damage but a good constant damage Design, I would guess....

Human Variant Tempest Cleric (Take AC15)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Savage Attacker
---Wrath of the Storm: Reaction damage, Dex save for half (2d6 + 3)(2d8)
Non-crit Damage: 7-21 (No Opportunity Attacks)

Because it might end up doing more reliable damage and keeping a low AC could help provoke the reaction.

Destructive Wrath is Level 2 but a guaranteed 16 damage is pretty awesome.

Ejay M-G · Aug 17, 2018

Heyy I am somewhat new to this game and after reading a bit I think i have found a way to reach AC 21 at lvl 1 and reduce dmg at the same time (only once tho)

Race: Goliath (I like that stone endurance as a great death save) (can be any race that can use heavy armour at lvl 1)
Armour: Full plate = 18 AC
Class: Fighter
Fighting style: Defence fighting +1
Arsenal: Shield +2
AC total: 21 (18 + 1 + 2)

Fighter is easily my most favorite class, and a must-have for any build for that sweet action surge at lvl 2 pretty much doubling ur dmg at lvl 2. For me highest possible AC and multi atk is OP which so far a pure fighter can have the highest amount of permanent atks and AC without scrolls and added outside resources (magic, companions, etc). I definitely open to comments and want to know if I am wrong and there is an even better way if possible. XD

I play this build calling him Gilgamesh (A god of kings and lords), so far lvl 9 and multi classed with ranger (fighter 4 & ranger 5)
* Attacks = I have 2 actions with extra atk (from ranger lvl 5), so in battles i do 4 atks XD not to mention Horde breaker (Ranger lvl 3 Ranger Archtype Hunter) if there are multiple enemies together (at beginning of the turn hit multiple enemies only using one atk with a remaining 3 other atks) XD
* Attack rolls = (Ranger lvl 1 favoured environment) - I originally chose underdark but had to change it to underground environment (becuase underdark is its own environment under ground and not the underground so through alot of persuasive checks against my DM he allowed me to make an environement called underground (anything man made of naturally formed underground spaces) pretty much doubling my prof in all atk rolls (we mostly fight in underground dungeons or caves). Managing to max the str + 2 from the goliath reaching +6 in str mod for atk rolls + 2 ranger fighting style + double prof (3 x 2 = 6) "underground" totals: 6 + 2 + 6 = 14 (this is a permanent addition to all rolls)
And this goes for each of the 4 atks not even including the actual d20 roll
* Healing = Second wind + stone endurance + some healing spell
* Fighter lvl 3 Archtype - battlemaster (is my absolute fav) Riposte, which allows you to atk on an enemy if they miss you on an atk and you hit them.. having an AC of at least 21, this is a common thing XD being able to atk on the enemies turns (fkn love this, but it is limited so I leave it to the bosses)
* Spells = I just got longstride (to outrun the other players if ever need be the case)

I am a one lvl shy away from lvl 5 fighter allowing me to have an "Extra Attack" allowing me to have 6 atks with pretty much the highest possible AC... Not to mention that i have extra language, the most tool/weapon/armour prof and in addition to max str the second ability i focused on was CON and then CHA for more health and a persuasive talker.

PS my DM hates me, who got so frustrated that he summoned a Tarrasque who only focused on me even when using longstride, the Tarrasque convieniently passed the other players and came after me... I killed the fkn Tarrasque, which the DM summoned another one after a short rest. This happened multiple times, and with the help of only one Archer (my own built character) (and yes i was using two classes only to survive this

tery) ending in an average of 20 turns to kill 11 Tarrasque (only one at a time tho with a short rest in between).

Pauper · Aug 17, 2018

This belongs in the Optimization forum.

--
Pauper

Ejay M-G · Aug 19, 2018

I thought this was an min/max forum, scrolling to the top it says lvl 1 min/max. And the thread says min/max fun
In my message, I said clearly how to get higher than the previous highest AC.
Getting 21 AC at lvl 1, instead of 20 AC.
Plus getting a higher DPR at lvl 2, with the same build. (I know not lvl 1 but still)

I can take the rant out tho, when I spoke about my own character Gil after it... kinda of got carried away there

If I am still in the wrong or just misinterpreting this, i will just take the entire message down

Dausuul · Aug 19, 2018

Ejay M-G said:
Armour: Full plate = 18 AC

How is a first-level character getting 1,500 gp to buy full plate?

ClaytonCross · Aug 19, 2018

Ejay M-G said:
Heyy I am somewhat new to this game and after reading a bit I think i have found a way to reach AC 21 at lvl 1 and reduce dmg at the same time (only once tho)

Ejay M-G said:
Race: Goliath (I like that stone endurance as a great death save) (can be any race that can use heavy armour at lvl 1)
Armour: Full plate = 18 AC
Class: Fighter
Fighting style: Defence fighting +1
Arsenal: Shield +2
AC total: 21 (18 + 1 + 2)

Fighter is easily my most favorite class, and a must-have for any build for that sweet action surge at lvl 2 pretty much doubling ur dmg at lvl 2. For me highest possible AC and multi atk is OP which so far a pure fighter can have the highest amount of permanent atks and AC without scrolls and added outside resources (magic, companions, etc). I definitely open to comments and want to know if I am wrong and there is an even better way if possible. XD

I play this build calling him Gilgamesh (A god of kings and lords), so far lvl 9 and multi classed with ranger (fighter 4 & ranger 5)
* Attacks = I have 2 actions with extra atk (from ranger lvl 5), so in battles i do 4 atks XD not to mention Horde breaker (Ranger lvl 3 Ranger Archtype Hunter) if there are multiple enemies together (at beginning of the turn hit multiple enemies only using one atk with a remaining 3 other atks) XD
* Attack rolls = (Ranger lvl 1 favoured environment) - I originally chose underdark but had to change it to underground environment (becuase underdark is its own environment under ground and not the underground so through alot of persuasive checks against my DM he allowed me to make an environement called underground (anything man made of naturally formed underground spaces) pretty much doubling my prof in all atk rolls (we mostly fight in underground dungeons or caves). Managing to max the str + 2 from the goliath reaching +6 in str mod for atk rolls + 2 ranger fighting style + double prof (3 x 2 = 6) "underground" totals: 6 + 2 + 6 = 14 (this is a permanent addition to all rolls)
And this goes for each of the 4 atks not even including the actual d20 roll
* Healing = Second wind + stone endurance + some healing spell
* Fighter lvl 3 Archtype - battlemaster (is my absolute fav) Riposte, which allows you to atk on an enemy if they miss you on an atk and you hit them.. having an AC of at least 21, this is a common thing XD being able to atk on the enemies turns (fkn love this, but it is limited so I leave it to the bosses)
* Spells = I just got longstride (to outrun the other players if ever need be the case)

I am a one lvl shy away from lvl 5 fighter allowing me to have an "Extra Attack" allowing me to have 6 atks with pretty much the highest possible AC... Not to mention that i have extra language, the most tool/weapon/armour prof and in addition to max str the second ability i focused on was CON and then CHA for more health and a persuasive talker.

PS my DM hates me, who got so frustrated that he summoned a Tarrasque who only focused on me even when using longstride, the Tarrasque convieniently passed the other players and came after me... I killed the fkn Tarrasque, which the DM summoned another one after a short rest. This happened multiple times, and with the help of only one Archer (my own built character) (and yes i was using two classes only to survive this

Ejay M-G said:
tery) ending in an average of 20 turns to kill 11 Tarrasque (only one at a time tho with a short rest in between).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, we are resurrecting a post from over a year ago. Okay then. So I get that with plate your can beat my 20AC character on the first page but ... how are you getting a 1,500 gp set of Plate armor at level 1? Mo class start with that much gold without homebrew. You could alternatively say +3 armor, +3 shield, clock of defense and have a AC27 but that is kind of against the point of the level 1 build limit. The intend is to restrict it to a character you might bring on day one to a game within the rules. With those restraints I don't know how to beet the Fighter build I started with and no one else has done it ether.

Human Variant Fighter
---Scale Mail - 14(Max2)
---Human Variant Feat: Medium Armor Master - 14(Max3)
---Defensive Fighting style (Armor AC +1) - 15(Max3)
---16 Dex (to fill max dex bonus) - 18
---Shield (+2 AC) - 20
Total AC 20

Now, I mentioned action surge at level 2 makes them powerful early like you said... however.... action surge at level 2 for a fighter is 2 attacks once per short rest, However War Clerics get 2 attacks 3 time per long rest ... at level 1 . If we are looking at one battle a day where rests don't matter then Cleric is the clear winner... even at level 2. This remains true unless we are getting 4 combats with 3 rests between in a single day. This never happens in campaigns I have played UNLESS we are in an enemy strong hold, but then we are likely to have 4 battles but not 3 rests. So from my point of view the below cleric has it for damage. I actually think my level 1 War Cleric is likely to kill your level 2 Fighter but since even at level 2 nether can take the full damage of one round of hits really its just a matter of who wins initiative and if some one rolls badly.

Human Variant War Cleric (Possible AC16)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---War Prist Bonus Action (2d6 + 13)(2d6 + 13)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 13)(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)

DPR Range 32 - 58
DPR Average: 45

I have not worried about hit since we are talking about level 1 builds vs the usually low AC enemies that they would fight.
Just for fun... Since that is why we are here... Proficiency bonus +2 at level 1, Strength is 16(+3), total +5 to hit vs AC20 (I am saying 20 because you should have plate at level 1). This means 20 - 6 (since its meat or exceed) = 14 at 5% (or .05) each, which is .7 (70% chance to hit) x 45 average role = 31.5 DPR average vs AC20 target. Max health at level 1 with 10+3(con)+2 (tough) = 15 HP.... So even if you were max hit points at level 2, 30HP with 20AC is a good chance your dead on the first round of course bad rolls would change that. Again, whoever hits first wins so initiative and a good first turn are really important at this level.

So you go off on a tangent on other fighter builds of higher level. Sure, Fighters are fun. Some interesting builds. I could go on about different Sorcerer builds of mass distraction too but for this particular thread I wanted to focus on level 1 because building a valid level 1 character has a lot more restrictions and a lot less "what if" measuring. For example, I am not sure where your getting your double proficiency bonus, You have extra attack from ranger, so hitting level 5 fighter will not change your attacks since extra attack does not stack if you gain it from two sources and you would only have 4 attacks once per short rest with action surge, unless your two weapon fighting which would drop your shield and lower your AC to 19... Some strange things going on with your character.

Thanks for your input though!

Ejay M-G said:
tery) ending in an average of 20 turns to kill 11 Tarrasque (only one at a time tho with a short rest in between).

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tarrasque#content

The Tarrasque has a movement speed of 40 which matches your speed WITH

longstrider. So unless your ranged your not escaping it.

Since your using Horde Breaker you in melee. Not sure how horde Breaker is helping you since it doesn't let you do any more damage to the Tarrasque..

"Horde Breaker:

Once on each o f your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet o f the original target and within range of your weapon."

If your have AC20 and max hit points of 126 at level 9 and a Tarrasque attacks you a +19 to hit then they only miss on natural 1 rolls with a 95% chance to hit, they get multi-attack with Frightful Presence (DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 10 rounds) AND 5 attacks with reach of 10-20ft depending on the attack, average damage of 40 (escape DC 20) + 30 + 30 + 35 + 25 = 160 DPR

If you do run on your turn it gets am opportunity attack as a reaction, bite 40 damage and at the end of your turn it takes a Legendary action 30 damage.

That's 230 damage in one turn vs your 126 max health at level 9. Your GM doesn't hate you. The only reason you could possibly survive the first round vs 1 Tarrasque is because the GM let you.....

The Tarrasque has Hit Points 676 (33d20+330) your group must be adding a ton of damage to killing one a round or you have an 8 player group?

ClaytonCross · Aug 19, 2018

Dausuul said:
How is a first-level character getting 1,500 gp to buy full plate?

I think I started my long winded post first but you got my biggest point up first, lol.

Quartz · Aug 19, 2018

ClaytonCross said:
---------------------Honerable Mention----------------------
Human Variant Fighter (Possible AC16)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---Dueling Fighting Style (2d6 + 15)
Non-Crit Damage: 17-27

Duelling fighting style is restricted to one-handed weapons only.

You are also not playing fair generally in that you are counting Bonus Actions for some and not for others. And then there are Reactions.

ClaytonCross · Aug 19, 2018

Quartz said:
Duelling fighting style is restricted to one-handed weapons only.

You are correct. I lost my mind for a bit apparently. I deleted the entry from the original post.

Quartz said:
You are also not playing fair generally in that you are counting Bonus Actions for some and not for others. And then there are Reactions.

I count bonus actions where they have them. If I missed something let me know but the intent is to include bonus actions. So if you know some "not for others" by all means feel free to update and add the source and damage or add your own showing what I missed. This post is latterly asking to be corrected and improved. If you have something like a crossbow expert build, throw it out there.

As far as reactions... I didn't include them as non-controllable by the player. If an enemy runs up to your player an you can't cause them to leave then you will not get one. That said... if you want to count it and throw out a sentinel build, feel free. With that in mind just put a header...

"Most DPR counting reactions"

I can see counting a sentinel reaction but then I am not sure how to compare it to non-sentinel. If a NPC moves away they would still get a reaction, so "Most DPR counting reactions" would mean including:

Human Variant War Cleric (Possible AC16)
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---War Prist Bonus Action (2d6 + 13)(2d6 + 13)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 13)(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)
---Reaction

(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)

(2d6 + 1d4 + 13)
DPR Range 48 - 87
DPR Average: 67.5

If we assume all attacks hit.

ClaytonCross · Aug 19, 2018

FrogReaver said:
Are to looking at a single round of combat, a whole combat, every combat in the day? The test conditions aren't very tightly defined so I have no way of knowing what to focus on.

My pick on highest AC at level 1 would be Fighter with magic initiate shield of Faith and defensive fighting style. Yes it's only 1 combat per day but 21 ac is very good.

I didn't think of any combinations that really mattered in that regard, but you could always preface a build with the situation as you did. Then if someone has a different idea of the scope they can preface it as well and not be "wrong" as long as their build works. With that in mind...

Single fight Max AC (using a concentration spell)

Human Variant Fighter
---Scale Mail - AC14(Max2)
---Dex bonus - AC16
---Defensive Fighting style (Armor AC +1) - AC17
---Shield (+2 AC) - 19
---Magic initiate: Shield of Faith +2
Total AC 21

Corrected when I was awake, lol. One concern here is

Shield of Faith is concentration which to me seems bad for defensive ability, if you do get hit you could lose it in the first round but it its higher than AC20 and your not likely to get hit so.. yep.

The method I mentioned in the original post is AC20 all the time so I would consider it a better build even though it is 1 AC lower. They also get "While Wearing medium armor doesn't impose disadvantage on your Dexterity (Stealth) checks" so it will scale better, in my opinion. I will add this to the first post as the new mas though.

However, continuing your line of thought.....

Single Round Max AC

Human Variant Fighter
---Scale Mail - AC14(Max2)
---Dex bonus - AC16
---Defensive Fighting style (Armor AC +1) - AC16
---Shield (+2 AC) - 18
---Magic initiate: Shield +5
Total AC 23